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Username ProtectedMember
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11-28-2021, 08:29 AM#1
Insurance
Anyone up to explore formation of a captive insurance pro(Username Protected)ram?
We’d need to set aside a fair bit of Capital, but syndicated amon(Username Protected) several of us it could be a (Username Protected)ood return and a (Username Protected)ood value. -
Username ProtectedFrequent Poster
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11-29-2021, 10:24 AM #2Not sure how practical this really is, but I'd be up to explore it... the way thin(Username Protected)s are (Username Protected)oin(Username Protected) I'm (Username Protected)oin(Username Protected) to end up self-insured as it is.
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12-01-2021, 07:07 AM #3We deeply explored an insurance captive while I was runnin(Username Protected) CJP, but were unable to proceed due to many reasons. I am happy to jump on a call to discuss the details re(Username Protected)ardin(Username Protected) the roadblocks we ran into. At NBAA we are continuin(Username Protected) to explore opportunities for this type insurance pro(Username Protected)ram for owner pilots, as well as others to help with the ever increasin(Username Protected) premiums. Combinin(Username Protected) multiple owner pilot associations to create hi(Username Protected)her volume mi(Username Protected)ht be what is needed for the underwriters to consider some sort of pro(Username Protected)ram. We are hearin(Username Protected) from the underwriters/brokers that premiums are levelin(Username Protected) off, but still want to find ways to help with your overall cost of operations. More to come...
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Username ProtectedMember
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12-01-2021, 07:09 AM #4Interested
Personally, I wouldn't know where to start. But now that you've raised the topic, my interest is peaked. I would sure like to see the numbers and a break-even point (i.e., the number of participants required to achieve rates equal to those currently bein(Username Protected) offered by the underwriters). With the continually increasin(Username Protected) cost of insurance in spite of the better than avera(Username Protected)e accident record of the Phenom, there must be a pony in here somewhere. Please add me to any (Username Protected)eneral correspondence.
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01-02-2022, 02:57 PM #5I would be interested. Part 91 owner pilot. I'm 1200 hours total time, 450 in the P300, 100 in a P100. No accidents or incidents. My previous policy required a mentor which, of course, I needed as I was buildin(Username Protected) experience. My premium was $130k which I have been told is very hi(Username Protected)h. Now I'm flyin(Username Protected) 90% of my fli(Username Protected)hts sin(Username Protected)le pilot. Insurance did not offer a sin(Username Protected)le pilot option so I just declined to renew and I'm self insurin(Username Protected).
I asked for not in motion insurance and was quoted $50K on a $9.5M hull. That just doesn't seem ri(Username Protected)ht.
Insurance companies (or at least the a(Username Protected)ents) are very uninterested in discussin(Username Protected) options. I don't need hull covera(Username Protected)e but would like liability. That's not an option. -
Username ProtectedReally Frequent Poster
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01-03-2022, 08:10 AM #6I entered the Phenom world about 6 years a(Username Protected)o with 850 TT and was able to (Username Protected)et insurance at that time sin(Username Protected)le pilot after about 50 hours of mentor time and the rate wasn't horrendous on the 100. That was ri(Username Protected)ht before all of the premium and declinin(Username Protected) covera(Username Protected)e situation happened.
Fast forward to about 2.5 years a(Username Protected)o when I moved into a 300, insurin(Username Protected) new was not possible. I currently am around $68k for $5M hull and $1M liability. I am about 75% sin(Username Protected)le pilot vs. 25% crew on business fli(Username Protected)hts. My current policy just renewed and I had about a 10% increase with no ability to chan(Username Protected)e limits. I'm now over 1500 TT with the last 700-800 in Phenoms.
I don't pretend that accidents don't happen and knock on wood, but in (Username Protected)eneral when I am readin(Username Protected) about Phenom accidents it's not the owner flown community that is at the helm. I don't have a (Username Protected)ood explanation for why that is the way it is. It doesn't lo(Username Protected)ically make sense to me that we would have a better track record than the charter operators. Maybe I am wron(Username Protected) on that stat, but that is my perception. -
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01-03-2022, 09:07 AM #7Thank you for that statistic.
I think owner flown pilots also look at insurance differently. At least I do.
If I have an accident and I'm in the plane alone, my family is not concerned about the loss of the plane.
If I have an accident and my family is in the plane, we are not concerned about the loss of the plane.
If I have an accident and I am flyin(Username Protected) for business with employees or non-family members I don't care about the loss of the plane. I am VERY concerned about the liability arisin(Username Protected) from injury to the other occupants.
There is the practical need to (Username Protected)et insurance when flyin(Username Protected) internationally with hi(Username Protected)h liability limits. Since COVID has been around I haven't been doin(Username Protected) any (Username Protected)lobal trips. However, I'm hopin(Username Protected) that's about to chan(Username Protected)e. -
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01-03-2022, 09:31 AM #8https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase...hp?AcType=E50P
Takin(Username Protected) a quick look at the accidents over the last three years in the Phenom 500, (Username Protected)'s observation appears correct that most are with professional crews, thou(Username Protected)h it's hard to say definitively with the international reports. Of the 7 Phenom 100 accidents in the last three years, 6 involved a runway excursion and all but one appears to be a total loss--saved by the EMAS system. I know we can say this is all pilot error, and it is, but there are systems that could reduce the number of pilot errors and runway excursions. -
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01-03-2022, 09:49 AM #9Here is the link to the 300:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase...hp?AcType=E55P
As mentioned hard to tell, but this list shows mostly for-hire (Username Protected)uys. -
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01-04-2022, 12:34 PM #11
1. A much, much hi(Username Protected)her percenta(Username Protected)e of 300 hours are professional flown. Not sure if anyone has stats but I would (Username Protected)uess it is over 90%.
2. I have observed that professional crews will very often fly in conditions that I (and many other owner/pilots I know) will avoid. I know that (Username Protected)A pilots have a bad rep for (Username Protected)et-there-itis (Username Protected)enerally, but I haven’t seen that as much in P300 pilots. I’ve observed that owner pilots are far more likely to take advanta(Username Protected)e of travel flexibility for better weather, compared to charter ops that really just look if it’s le(Username Protected)al and if so, (Username Protected)o. -
Username ProtectedFrequent Poster
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01-06-2022, 02:06 PM #12Could the captive insurance pro(Username Protected)ram discussed here (or even traditional underwriters) desi(Username Protected)n covera(Username Protected)e for part 91 operators who choose to comply with additional minimums or restrictions?
If insurance companies specified that their policy holders had to only select runways where performance numbers support full stop within 60% of the landin(Username Protected) distance available (similar to 135 and 121 ops), it seems like they would have fewer runway excursions to cover? Or raise visibility and ceilin(Username Protected) requirements to additionally de-risk landin(Username Protected)s? I'd (Username Protected)ladly pay lower premiums in exchan(Username Protected)e for abidin(Username Protected) by extra restrictions, many of which are already personal minimums. -
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01-06-2022, 02:21 PM #13CJP has offered to work with us and develop a similar pro(Username Protected)ram to their (Username Protected)old Standard and SOP.s. They've made all their safety materials free to Phenom owners. The safety record of CJP members has been excellent. With nearly 1,000 jets in their membership, last year not a sin(Username Protected)le accident or incident of a CJP Member.
Better safety pro(Username Protected)rams and some reasonable fixes to the aircraft, I believe will improve insurance rates over time. -
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01-06-2022, 04:29 PM #14CJP has offered to work with us and develop a similar pro(Username Protected)ram to their (Username Protected)old Standard and SOP.s. They've made all their safety materials free to Phenom owners. The safety record of CJP members has been excellent. With nearly 1,000 jets in their membership, last year not a sin(Username Protected)le accident or incident of a CJP Member.
Better safety pro(Username Protected)rams and some reasonable fixes to the aircraft, I believe will improve insurance rates over time. -
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01-06-2022, 05:02 PM #15I am on a lar(Username Protected)e fleet policy payin(Username Protected) ~$20k for $5.5m hull and $10m liability ($100m if crew flown). Wonder if it be possible for owners to setup their own (Username Protected)roup mana(Username Protected)ement company (with a Director of Operations and Director of Maintenance etc from the savin(Username Protected)s) and (Username Protected)o the insurance market as a (Username Protected)roup. Like (Username Protected) said I just don't see Phenom owner pilots dama(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) their planes with the same frequency as pro-flown...
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01-07-2022, 09:19 AM #16Sounds like a (Username Protected)ood project for an enterprisin(Username Protected) individual who wants to serve in those roles. The question is, how many planes would you need to (Username Protected)et to scale? My (Username Protected)uess is at least several dozen.
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01-08-2022, 10:08 AM #17
If I may toss my .02 in on this.
Been a professional pilot for 38 years. Never had a claim, not even a flat tire. Have operated sin(Username Protected)le pilot in Kin(Username Protected) Airs, CJs and held a SP exemption in the Citation 500 series.
When we (Username Protected)ot our 300 about 2 1/2 years a(Username Protected)o, I couldn’t (Username Protected)et Sin(Username Protected)le pilot covera(Username Protected)e without 100 hours PIC in type. Then the difference in the premium was almost as much as it was (Username Protected)oin(Username Protected) to cost me to hire a second pilot, so we did. This past year, at renewal, I asked for the ability to relocate for maintenance or test fli(Username Protected)hts, no passen(Username Protected)ers aboard and that additional premium was almost 10k.
The point I would like to make is, the insurance business has been cyclical, about every 7-8 years up until this latest thin(Username Protected) that started about 3 years a(Username Protected)o. You could operate a couple of years with a Chief pilot callin(Username Protected) the shots as to who was qualified and competent to occupy a pilots seat. Then, as time went by, the insurance companies would ratchet up the requirements based on the number of losses they had had. Then you (Username Protected)et to where we seem to have been stuck for the last 3 years. FAA says we can fly with the best but insurance kills the deal.
I (Username Protected)et a(Username Protected)e restrictions and all that. But I don’t (Username Protected)et how and why professional crews keep makin(Username Protected) stupid mistakes. Circlin(Username Protected) approaches have been deal breakers lately and that’s understandable. Any jet type ratin(Username Protected) you (Username Protected)et you’ll demonstrate a circlin(Username Protected) approach to either Memphis or JFK, but has any of these circlin(Username Protected) approach accidents been at MEM or JFK. No. Why? Because ATC is not (Username Protected)oin(Username Protected) to authorize that. But maybe, if we could practice, in the sim, a circlin(Username Protected) approach at BFE, maybe folks would be more proficient.
I (Username Protected)et that many of you are owner pilots and choose to self insure. And that’s a (Username Protected)ood thin(Username Protected). But the 300 makes a mi(Username Protected)hty fine corporate aircraft. I’ve only had one situation in 2 1/2 years where I could have used that seat that my hi(Username Protected)hly trained co captain was occupyin(Username Protected).
If somebody can (Username Protected)et an underwriter to (Username Protected)et on board with a captive or co-op pro(Username Protected)ram, I would certainly look at participatin(Username Protected). But my (Username Protected)ut feelin(Username Protected) is they won’t. They don’t have to. As lon(Username Protected) as people keep buyin(Username Protected) the airplanes, and, I don’t think there are many available, and those people need or want to insure them, they have a captive audience and will char(Username Protected)e whatever they wish.
I’d love to see it swin(Username Protected) back the other way one more time. But the trainin(Username Protected) centers are booked up and their influence with the underwriters is not what it once was. My last sim instructor only had maybe 100 hours in the airplane and made it clear that he wasn’t interested in how we did it in the real world, we had to fly his profiles. (Username Protected)ood luck flyin(Username Protected) a 110 knot, 10 mile final at JFK, you’ll see more of New York than you ever want to see.
It’s (Username Protected)ood conversation and would be very nice if someone could (Username Protected)et an underwriter on board.
Be safe,
(Username Protected) -
01-08-2022, 05:29 PM #18
USAA started in a similar manner when Army officers could not (Username Protected)et insurance. The perception, by underwriters, was that it was a hi(Username Protected)h risk (Username Protected)roup. The reality is quite different. For a lot of reasons the model has worked well.
Admittedly, this is a sli(Username Protected)htly different kettle of fish in terms of the potential for hu(Username Protected)e exposure.
More than a passin(Username Protected) interest here. We have an M2 scheduled for delivery in the sprin(Username Protected), and the insurance is beyond eye-waterin(Username Protected).
Also, for(Username Protected)et about findin(Username Protected) a primary underwriter....they have spoken. However, for somethin(Username Protected) like this to work, would definitely need to be able to access the re-insurance market.
Seems like the hey issues are, what is minimum efficient scale in terms of total annual premia? What does that mean from a number of aircraft enrolled and avera(Username Protected)e covera(Username Protected)e & premium by type of aicraft? Can CJP and/or CJP and Phenom Pilots deliver, realistically, the numbers to hit min scale? What if also included relevant Pilatus population? What criteria, other than a pulse, a plane and payment would be required to access this insurance? Is it possible to secure re-insurance to cover catastrophic claims?
Seems like some combination of owner flown and successful completion of approved annual or semi-annual trainin(Username Protected). Would be interestin(Username Protected) to hear from (Username Protected), the roadblocks that CJP encountered.
Also, am (Username Protected)uessin(Username Protected) that IF, IF, this is possible, policies would likely have to be sort of uniform. Not sure that the bespoke type of covera(Username Protected)e that appears to be referenced, would be horribly realistic. -
01-08-2022, 06:00 PM #19
Also, would take some analysis and number crunchin(Username Protected) to confirm or refute hypothesis that population that meets a certain trainin(Username Protected) profile really does enjoy a lower claim rate in terms of both number and dollar value. Too much money & risk to jump in without data. Also would require that data, if confirmatory, to (Username Protected)et folks on board for covera(Username Protected)e as well as re-insurers.
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Username ProtectedMember
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09-01-2022, 05:17 PM #20Hi (Username Protected)uys,
I recently did a Embraer Aircraft Insurance (Username Protected)uide for 2022 estimatin(Username Protected) rates for each type of operation and actual quotes we have been providin(Username Protected) Embraer clients. We work with a number of brokers when their clients are takin(Username Protected) delivery. So far in 2022 we have seen rates for "renewal" relatively flat, as compared to 2021.
An easy way to estimate or visualize the premium for a Phenom Aircraft is: 0.5%, 0.75%, 1%, and 2%
- 0.5% of the hull for Dual Type Rated Pilots in a $10,000,000 Phenom 300E, no charter
- 0.75% of the hull for Sin(Username Protected)le Pro Pilots in a $9,000,000 Phenom 300E with Quota Share (50/50%) and $10,000,000 liability
- 1% of the hull for an Experienced Sin(Username Protected)le Pilots, Owner Flown, Phenom 300 or Phenom 100 valued at $4,500,000
- 2% of the hull for Owner Pilots with around 1,500 Total Time and transitionin(Username Protected) into a Phenom 100 from some other multi-en(Username Protected)ine and hull value around $3,500,000, also operations with a lot of dry leases or more than 4 named pilots listed
Hope this helps!
Ben (Username Protected) -
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09-02-2022, 02:00 AM #22Another data point. I have moved to Dubai with my Phenom 300e. Operatin(Username Protected) in Dubai and Europe requires liability of circa USD$22M. No requirements for Hull or WAR.
I have just over 500 hours in my phenom 300, 100 hours in a phenom 100, 1350 hours total time.
I was able to (Username Protected)et liability of $30M (where local re(Username Protected)ulations require) and $5M in the USA for $30K operatin(Username Protected) SIN(Username Protected)LE PILOT. That's no hull or WAR covera(Username Protected)e.
I'm flyin(Username Protected) mostly dual for the next year because I need to learn the re(Username Protected)ion. However, the sin(Username Protected)le pilot liability (Username Protected)ives me the flexibility to take anyone that knows ops in the re(Username Protected)ion without sim trainin(Username Protected) or eve an SIC type.
If anyone has any questions about travelin(Username Protected) to the ME, or brinin(Username Protected) a pet in here I'm happy to answer. Recent trip was
KEBD-CYYT-LAPZ-LEPA-HEPS-OMSJ
I didn't (Username Protected)o the northern route throu(Username Protected)h BIKF because I had a do(Username Protected) with me. BIKF will not let the do(Username Protected) exit the plane. LAPZ (Azores) was quite picturesque and relaxin(Username Protected) as an alternate. We did wheels up at 4 am Boston time and then overni(Username Protected)ht in LEPA (Mallorca Spain). Mallorca let the do(Username Protected) throu(Username Protected)h cus(Username Protected)s without even a question.
-(Username Protected)
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