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07-25-2021, 06:20 PM#1
High time aircraft
I'm a prospective Phenom 100 buyer who has also been looking at the Mustang and Eclipse. Unlike those two fleets, there are a somewhat significant number of 100s with 5,000-10,000 hours on them. I'm a retired Coast Guard pilot, where I don't think I ever flew an aircraft without at least 10,000 hours on it, but we also tore them down to the ribs every 4 years for a significant overhaul. Does anyone have a feel for the down sides to these high time Phenoms from a maintenance or safety perspective? Thanks in advance.
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07-25-2021, 10:04 PM #2As long as they are on engine programs, I have no concerns with a higher airframe plane (the 2nd overhaul can be more expensive than the first because some parts could start running up against their cycle limit). If not on programs you really need to crunch the numbers.
Regardless there should be some additional airframe depreciation, not sure on the exact value. About $100/hr in my mind ($500k discount on 7000 hr plane vs 2000 hr?) For resale the buyer pool may be slightly smaller, but the lower price should offset that. -
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07-26-2021, 11:51 AM #3A 10,000 hour Phenom is lightyears better than any Eclipse. I love the Eclipse community, and I enjoyed owning mine, but man the Phenom is such an upgrade.
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07-28-2021, 07:43 AM #4Sometimes completely tearing them down too often is as bad as not performing any maintenance. There are Phenom100's with less than 1,000 hours or landings, flown regularly and hangar kept, that have had their gear overhauled. These aircraft were built to withstand high utilization service in a "for revenue" operation and the fleet leaders are at 10,000 hours/12 Years. Although the Phenom inspection program is not as comprehensive as the Coast Guard's inspection program, it is very thorough and in fact, there is room to escalate some items in an effort to reduce DMC.
There are inspection items with thresholds, required to be inspected in a repetitive interval after reaching a number of hours or landings since new. -
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07-29-2021, 04:11 PM #6Hi (Username Protected),
I recently flew twenty-five hours in a HIGH TIME former Jet Suites airplane mentoring a company in Texas. I previously worked with the “Texas Company” when they purchased a Citation.
I was totally BLOWN AWAY by how WELL the Phenom aged. Flying an 8,000 hour Phenom made me a bigger fan of the type. It was night and day compared to Text(Username Protected) products.
Regarding engine programs, it is my opinion that P&W ESP is the only option for the Phenom. I have several reasons for this based on many personal experiences.
Aero Star Aviation (KDAL) did an amazing job on “refreshing” one of Jet Suites aircraft.
Regarding high time engines: Who would be interested in hanging a 617F1 on an older second or third run Phenom 100? I’m working with a company that is looking at creating this STC since EMB won’t touch it. It would likely include the GWI of the EV.
(Username Protected),
I have recommended to the company researching the marketability of the F1 engine on the original 100's work with you as a consultant due to your abilities to "navigate Embraer". I have an airframe that is a great testbed candidate for the F1 engine and GWI. -
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07-29-2021, 04:27 PM #7(Username Protected),
I posted this on beecktalk a long time ago. Maybe you will find some of the information interesting. FYI This post on beechtalk turned into a "my mustang is better than any Phenom" following this post... My takeaway are that Mustang owners sensitive people.
BeechTalk: Post subject: Re: Mustang vs Phenom 100
"I’m typed and fly both the Phenom and the Mustang and get asked this question daily.
Mustang – The aft seat and the small pedestal are great. The automobile style seat belts are useless in the bumps (I’m 6’3”). My guests always use disposable fluid bags and have never used the MID CABIN honey pot.
The steps (CJ style folding ladder) main cabin entry door, and cabin cross section are 30 years obsolete and not competitive in 2019… Despite this, the rear full-width bench seat is comfortable in the Mustang! Example, I do my paperwork inside the Mustang. I do my paperwork on the wing of the Phenom.
Phenom – The cockpit fits like a glove, you feel much more attached to the airplane. The Phenom has wonderful cockpit seats (for a VLJ). Both aircraft fly nicely, but the Phenom’s flight controls (pitch & roll) are better balanced and feel heavier. The yoke and glare shield mounted PTT in the Phenom are very nice.
The brake system in the Phenom is the best in class and everything else will feel disappointing after flying a Phenom.
The Mustang flies beautifully but in my opinion, the controls are a little too light (P210 vs 177).
The entry, cabin, windows, refreshment center and stowage in the Phenom takes the gold medal. The Mustang didn’t even enter the race.
The Mustang has ample external baggage for all normal missions. I had a regular guest in the Phenom that would fly with an adult sized road racing bicycle in aft baggage. This bicycle would not fit in the Mustang… The Mustang’s baggage is adequate and unless you have a special need, this category is a tie!
Maintenance management – Phenom takes the gold but that doesn’t make the mustang bad.
The Phenom’s airframe is integrated with the G1000. Failed components are marked with a red X. The Phenom also has a maintenance computer that also tracks impending failures. The system works very well. I was recently helping an owner with an international acquisition and we identified a failing component from thousands of miles away.
Embraer is always improving the Phenom and boosting reliability, so it’s very important to participate in EEC to get MOST of the improvements.
The experience for a Phenom that has a maintenance discrepancy works like this:
1. Email the CMC file to EMB.
2. EMB will call you in a few minutes and tell you what’s w(Username Protected)g, where the part is coming from, who is installing it and when you will be back in the air.
The engines are equal except for the Phenom has a full FADEC system with automated starts and hot start protection. The burner can on the Mustang is discounted from P&W and is part of the HSI and OH. The Phenom more so than the Mustang has the bearing seal (4) issue that P&W resolves during the HSI or OH on BOTH airframes. The Mustang has had a few issues of abnormal track wear. The engine needs to be shipped home to P&W to resolve this issue.
Pricing – The used market price delta has shrunk between the two fleets. If I wanted to self-insure against airframe/avionics maintenance and normally flew regional trips with my wife in the back seat and occasionally another couple, I would buy any S/N Mustang.
If my trips sometimes got longer, my wife wouldn’t fill a disposable fluid bag and wanted a flush potty or I was using the airplane to conduct business, I would buy a Phenom on programs.
Warning - Not all programs are equal, due your homework.
Warning – Many people in aircraft sales claim to be an expert in Phenoms and don’t know Sh*t about Phenoms. You can buy the right S/N and optioned Phenom for your mission or you can buy the w(Username Protected)g Phenom for your mission. You will need to do lots and lots and lots of homework. They didn’t make any bad Phenoms, but different Phenoms work better for different missions. This isn’t an issue with the Mustang fleet.
ESP (preferably Gold Plus) is a must for both aircraft.
Checkout my IG for videos of both aircraft https://www.instagram.com/heading365/ " -
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02-06-2023, 10:47 AM #8Hi (Username Protected). I have 100HRs in the Honda Jet (love it), but need a cheaper option than the program I was in. I'm looking at the Eclipse, but I'm worried about Flap fail issues and Anti-lock brake failures. My other option is the Phenom 100, but failures/maintenance issue (on this forum) seem to be even worse than with the Eclipse. My one flight so far in the Eclipse was really fun (it's like flying a sports car). Other than the much larger/nicer cabin of the Phenom, what do you like better?
Thanks,
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02-06-2023, 11:02 AM #9Reading forums of people discussing issues (peeling back skin) does detract from the opinion of anything. I don't sell aircraft, but worked with a guy stepping out of an Eclipse and into a Phenom100. I've asked several times in retrospect and his response remains it was a good decision.
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02-06-2023, 11:18 AM#10
I don't have much Phenom time so I'll let the experts provide the real info on that. I will point out that Eclipse prices have come back down to the point that Phenom's are at least twice as expensive on the acquisition side, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison any more. The only way to get in something like the same range with a Phenom is a high time aircraft, hence my original question.
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02-06-2023, 04:39 PM #11(Username Protected),
Finding a Phenom100 between 10 & 11 years old with just over 7,000 hours is not bad because the 120 Month Inspection was recently completed and likely to have new flight control cables and other airframe repairs. The Landing Gear was just overhauled and both engines are likely to have recent overhauls.
Embraer makes airliners and used some of that airline design philosophy in the Phenoms. For example, all those antennas on the roof and other probes sticking out of the fuselage can be replaced from the outside. The windshields are completely removable by removing the external screws without dismantling your cockpit. What this means to you is interior pieces have been removed "less" since new. Those little plastic clips which hold the interior together and break when you touch them are likely still intact or were replaced during the 120 month inspection.
The earliest Phenom is 14 years old, which means it's still one of the newest models. None were ever made without a glass cockpit or FADEC controlled engines. Few options have reached obsolescence and the production line making this model is still open.
Aircraft which have been in revenue service since new, normally have less upgrades; less bells & whistles that break. Their history is often more complete and in order. They tend have repaints and cosmetic refurbishments in their history or are due for your custom touches. I believe the Phenom at age 20 will still be a good value.
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