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06-04-2021, 08:48 AM #1FCSOV / BLEED 1 FAIL - was I actually AOG?
Hey all--
Had my first real issue in 100 hours of ownership so far -- got a BLEED 1 FAIL about 30 min into a flight. Followed the QRH instructions, wasn't able to get it to extinguish.
I was on a max range flight already, with thunderstorms along the whole route of flight, and it was getting to be night, so the prospect of continuing on at FL310 didn't seem like a winner in my mind, so I decided to land somewhere, spend the night, and then fly it to Mesa in the morning. If I'm going to have to wait somewhere for parts to arrive, I'd rather be in Phoenix, as we have an office there. A quick look at the MEL seemed to indicate that you could dispatch with a failed FCSOV as long as you limited your altitude.
Picking my diversion airport -- I realized that I had made the mistake of not knowing where the AOG service center bases were. I made a SWAG (strategic wild ass guess) and chose to land at KFCM, and it turns out I lucked out, because Elliott Aviation has Phenom AOG capability there. I have now put a copy of this site's Service Center spreadsheet into Foreflight. I think that's a good thing to have.
Side note: someone made a Foreflight list of waypoints for the Cirrus service centers so that you can easily pull it up as a map overlay. Does anyone know how to do that? It'd be cool to be able to pull up the SCs as a map overlay for situations like this.
Anyway, so upon landing at KFCM, it was night time so nobody was there. I sent a CMC download to the Service Center to start any troubleshooting that may be helpful and Embraer wrote back telling me that, no I could not dispatch under the MEL, I was AOG. Elliott ordered me a new FCSOV and it arrived the next morning, after which I was on my way.
I was a little annoyed though because I ended up spending 2 nights at KFCM and I am still not sure that I was actually AOG in this situation. The MEL says that you can dispatch with a failed FCSOV, and it was pretty clear from the situation that that's what had failed. But Embraer said that BLEED 1 FAIL can have other causes and therefore you are AOG until you've solved that CAS message completely. Since it seems to me that a failed FCSOV would always produce a BLEED FAIL CAS, I'm trying to reconcile the question of exactly what makes an airplane dispatchable in this case.
Any thoughts? -
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06-04-2021, 01:54 PM #2The FCSOV is a problem part on the P100 as is the GCU. Look at the supporting documents that you should have received with the logbook entry to see if you received a serviceable unit from enviro that was "inspected", serviceable unit that was "repaired or overhauled" or a new unit. If you received a serviceable unit that was only inspected be prepared to suffer another AOG event.... Enviro's inspection "ATP" is lacking.
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06-04-2021, 04:07 PM #3(Username Protected),
The "PHEONM 100 MINIMUM EQUIPMENT LIST (MEL) GUIDE" translates CAS messages into MEL actions, and the dispatch condition for a BLEED 1(2) FAIL is No Dispatch.
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06-04-2021, 04:34 PM #5Not trying to be obnoxious, genuinely trying to learn here. When I started the airplane again the next morning, there was no CAS. I was later told that Elliott could reproduce the CAS on the ground when doing a high power engine run for testing, but I wouldn't have known that if it was just me trying to figure out if I can dispatch.
Is this page saying "if any of these CAS messages are *currently on the screen*?" or is it saying "If you recently got one of these?" or is it more unclear? -
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06-04-2021, 04:41 PM #6If I didn’t get the CAS on the ground I personally would dispatch.
In fact that happened to me two summers ago. The Bleed CAS came on enroute but close to my destination so I continued after following the QRH (descend below 31k). Think I was going into Grand Canyon so fairly remote.
The next day it had cleared; the CAS came back on about an hour into the next flight. This time I was going into an airport that had AOG truck on field, so they swapped the valve there.
However in your scenario, once the mechanic had started the troubleshooting and identified specific issues beyond the CAS message I think you were proper AOG.. -
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06-04-2021, 05:08 PM #7Unfortunately, I would be prepared for a repeat event. I've personally had four FCSOVs that were "inspected" that were P.O.S. and ended up AOG. As a 1000 hours of "been there done that" advice I would boldly and loudly refuse any replacement FCSOV or GCU that is not factory new. The P100 is a great airplane but Embraer has a serious fleet parts support issue.
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06-04-2021, 07:36 PM #8Got it. I actually had no idea that return parts that were simply "inspected" would be returned to service with no action taken. That's kind of mind blowing, and disappointing.
Well, at least now I'm prepared when it happens again. Thanks.
Curious: are you considering dumping EEC so you can source your own parts or are you still an EEC cus(Username Protected)er despite these sorts of issues? -
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06-09-2021, 09:29 AM #11That’s unfortunately an all too common occurrence. At my previous operator we kept having both PRSOV and AMS Controller related issues where our DOM would install the “new” part only for a new symp(Username Protected) or combination of things be present. After he started researching how many parts we’d received that were “inspected” versus new or actually overhauled, he got with our field rep and started demanding new for every exchange. Embraer will get a part that an operator says is bad or that CMC data backs as being bad, but it’ll get bench tested and returned to stock if it passes. Not a good practice in my opinion.
As for your failed PRSOV, I don’t have the 100 MEL to see what actions are called for. On the 300, we can dispatch with one failed and are limited to 36,000’. However, there are also maintenance actions required to wire the failed valve to a closed position, so it’s not a pilot signed off MEL item. -
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06-09-2021, 10:14 AM #12A note of caution:
In the past few years the FAA has started following up on declared emergencies, diversions, and rejected takeoffs, and if they are for mechanical reasons, asking to see the paperwork that returned the aircraft to service.
A pilot stating the message cleared on the next power cycle is not acceptable, and I know of at least two recent cases where pilots have been violated for flying an airplane before it was cleared by mtx.
YMMV, but given that you diverted and the issue is not an MEL item, I think considering the plane AOG was prudent. -
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06-09-2021, 10:22 AM #13(Username Protected)-
Not sure how to do a map overlay in FF off the top of my head, but I made this up quickly with GC Mapper, you can save the image to iPad or phone for quick reference:
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06-09-2021, 12:48 PM #14Foreflight custom map overlay
If you can export the points on the map as a KML file, you can use Foreflight's content pack feature to make a map overlay of the service centers.
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06-12-2021, 01:03 PM #18Sure thing (Username Protected),
Please keep in mind most Service Bulletins have a warranty coverage that varies usually from 12 to 24 months from the issue date of the SB.
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