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11-19-2020, 12:09 PM
#1
A New PHENOMenon in Landing Gear Overhaul’s
The Av8 Group is pleased to announce the company has received FAA approval to provide complete landing gear overhaul services for Embraer Phenom 100 and 300 aircraft. The new Embraer program is a result of the company's deep resources in engineering, PMA parts certification and experience in redefining landing gear overhaul processes.
This new program offers operators truly Fixed Price pricing, which provides customers with the most inclusive overhaul along with the best price protection available in the industry. Qualifying gear just needs to meet two simple requirements for the Fixed Price program, which eliminates additional bills, exceptions and exclusions. This means that the price quoted is exactly the same as the final bill. Landing gear will be inspected and overhauled in accordance with OEM standards, as well as FAA and EASA Authorizations. Turnaround times are expected to be four weeks from equipment receipt and exchange gear will be available if needed.
The Av8 Group provides exceptional value for the Phenom 100 and 300 gear overhaul through the use of PMA parts, while being engineered and certified in-house to OEM and FAA specifications. The company anticipates a savings of 10% or more from traditional factory overhaul, along with confirmation of a firm completion date and locked pricing for each overhaul project.
More information is available at www.av8grp.com or please reach out to (Username Protected) via:
(Username Protected)@av8grp.com
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11-20-2020, 09:38 AM #2Having been through a ridicolous 7 weeks gear overhaul on my P300with Westair and extra costs and frustration, I strongly encourage people to take a look at the above and see if it makes sense.
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11-20-2020, 06:01 PM #3How will using an "out of network" provider affect EEC coverage and resale value?
According to my primary maintenance provider Embraer has finally worked through their supply chain issues and WestStar is turning the gear around in 4 weeks with an average cost of $135K-$145K. -
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11-22-2020, 05:54 AM #4I am obviously biased, being associated with Aerospace Turbine Rotables, Inc., the first company independent FAA authorized facility to enter the market for the Phenom landing gear, but let me address the issues above.
What's impacting the resale value of Phenoms is the high maintenance cost, especially the 120 month inspection and the landing gear overhaul. By way of comparison, a Lear 45, which is Part 25 (versus Part 23) and twice the gross weight of the Phenom 100 costs $40,000 on average at Aerospace Turbine Rotables Inc. The high costs of the Phenom landing gear is related to exorbitant parts costs and complexity. Embraer has brought up the warranty issue but it is not legal for an OEM to deny warranty for going to an FAA authorized facility unless they can establish it was the cause of the issue...which for the gear is extraordinarily unlikely. Aerospace Turbine Rotables has been overhauling gear for Challenger, Global Express, Gulfstream, Lear, Pilatus and King Airs for decades, and for some of the largest operators. No one, other than Embraer, has ever brought up the issue of warranty or resale value.
Competition is what provides the best service, innovation and improved resale value. If it wasn't for Aerospace Turbine Rotables entering the market, there would have been no incentive for Embraer to fix "the supply chain issues," Resale value drives new aircraft sales...and what drives resale value is operating costs. -
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11-22-2020, 09:17 AM #5I think the only valid concern from EEC is that won’t accept a PMA part as a core return. That seems reasonable, but hopefully Turbine Rotables or Av8 can facilitate an exchange.
(Username Protected) what is your process if a PMA part needs repair/replacement? How long is the initial warranty? -
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11-23-2020, 08:53 AM #7I was told that authorized Embraer service centers can only use approved Embraer vendors. If they use vendors outside of Embraer's vendor network the service center is subject to loosing their status.
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11-23-2020, 04:48 PM #8Aerospace Turbine Rotables (AeTR) is getting work from authorized service centers. The gear isn't included in the EEC program. there are a couple of authorized service centers that are afraid of Embraer retaliating but others have made the decision that the operator is their customer and they should respect the owner/operators wishes. Other service centers re saying that Weststar is their direct competitor and they don't want to be sending the gear to their competitor. And....some operators are saying to the service centers "OK then, I'll bring my plane to Aerostar or another independent...." They do a wonderful job, save money and have a thriving Phenom business.
AeTR does a lot of Lear, Global and Challenger work. Bombardier would like to keep all of it but if the aircraft is on Smart Parts (which includes the gear), they send us the parts and we do the gear if that is what the owner selects. That has been the industry standard for decades.
Hope that helps. Feel free to call anytime. -
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12-03-2020, 05:16 PM #9My landing gear is due in February, got some quotes with and without WesStar. Delta is about $10,000. The non WestStar would be not EEC covered, so if an issue would have to deal with extended warranty provider what could cause a longer ground time. I got no answer from EEC if there is a cost saving in the program, more likely not. By selling the aircraft one day would have tell the buyer EEC but without LG. Not sure this all is $10,000 worth. More than happy to support third parties but not for this amount difference.
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12-03-2020, 05:31 PM #10(Username Protected),
Not sure I follow the numbers above. You should be saving between $40,000 if there are no over and aboves and $75,000 if you have additional issues with the gear by going with Aerospace Turbine Rotables, Inc.(AeTR). For most of us that is substantial. Did you get those numbers from AeTR directly? If you haven't spoken to AeTR, email me directly and I'll arrange an introduction. The AeTR warranty will be as good or better than the OEM alternative.
Your gear isn't covered by EEC so maybe you can share a bit more about that reference. (there were only a couple early serial numbers that were). AeTR does Global, Challenger, Gulfstream, King Air, Pilatus and Lear 45 gear in addition to Phenom for some of the biggest operators. Hope that helps.
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12-03-2020, 05:54 PM #11(Username Protected). I went through the overhaul with Weststar. The quote was advantageous, but fooled me once.... Once they disassemble the gear, you will receive the repair quote. Mine was 45k over and above the overhaul quoted price. Another Phenom that went just before mine mine was 65k in parts. So just be ready for the surprise and budget 200k (this is for a P300)
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12-03-2020, 05:58 PM #12The quotes I got from Weststar are 145K and from a third party 135K - landing gear overhaul only, there is is the 10K coming from. @(Username Protected): You are correct, EEC does not cover landing gear, my fault!
@(Username Protected): Thanks for the WestStar surprise hint.
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12-03-2020, 06:28 PM #13Hello (Username Protected). As (Username Protected) mentions, Phenom operators can expect to save at least $40k going with AeTR. I can tell you, our flat-rate is much less than $135k. We have had Phenom Service Centers send us gear, as well as independents. I would be happy to send you a proposal, discuss our average "out the door" invoices, and our advantages.
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12-03-2020, 06:49 PM #14Using a landing gear overhaul service provider like AeTR does NOT impact EEC coverage. As some have mentioned, landing gear overhaul isn't covered by EEC anyway, but beyond that, our EEC Prime contract (and I assume all EEC Prime and EEC Standard contracts) allow for independent MROs to perform maintenance on any part of the aircraft and the EEC coverage for the parts is unaffected. Also, under EEC, whether you use West Star or AeTR, EEC will not cover any issues with West Star 's (or AeTR's) workmanship during any landing gear maintenance. If there is a problem with your landing gear after overhaul, West Star or AeTR's warranty, not EEC, covers that. (That said, we have had zero issues with our landing gear since overhaul at AeTR approximately 200 hours / cycles ago!)
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12-04-2020, 02:04 PM
#15
Phenom Pilots,
I wanted to discuss a topic that sounds like semantics but is very big distinguishing factor between AV8 MRO and our competition. Flat rate verses Fixed price. Over the last few weeks I have had the pleasure of talking with many of you and heard we are apples to apples with our competitions quotes. I think its important to say we aren’t an Apple at all, we are an Orange.
Our FIXED price is the same at the beginning, the middle, and the end. There is no comparable quotes that we need to send out, because it’s the same for everyone. There is no grey area where you may fall on the low side here or unfortunately end up at the higher side here. EVERYTHING associated with your landing gear components overhaul is INCLUDED. At Av8 MRO we also replace your brake hoses and wiring harnesses, because we believe that putting 10 year old parts back on a new gear isn’t right. That alone at Embraer list price parts is almost $20,000 in freebies. We have one price for the Phenom 100 and one price for the Phenom 300. To see those prices you can go to our website and fill out a very small informational and get the information instantly.
Flat rate pricing all though implies that everything will be included in your gear overhaul, unfortunately is just the starting price. Usually it includes the standard inspection labor and the 100% auto replacement parts. However, if items are found to have corrosion and you need a new part that will be extra. Chroming, labor for re-inspections, fees for engineering repairs all will be what’s considered “over and above”. You have no idea where your gear will fall in the over and above category until your gear is pulled apart. It’s very difficult to budget your landing gear overhaul because of the unknowns associated with the flat rate.
We ask that you remove the unknown and go with the only company that has one price for the Phenom 100 and one price for the Phenom 300. Everything is included or as we like to say it: It’s the Whole Enchilada!
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12-10-2020, 02:32 PM #16(Username Protected), for those who may be unfamiliar with OEM vs PMA parts, would you please give a brief explanation on how they differ and what testing must be completed on a PMA part in order to be certified?
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12-10-2020, 04:05 PM
#17
Mr. (Username Protected),
That is a great question and here is the breakdown for the PMA side of things.
The FAA has long provided a path to reverse engineer aircraft parts. This path is called PMA approval. In order to attain a PMA approval for a part an organization must do this:
- Generate certification package of dimensional, material properties, and processes.
- Present that package for approval to a Designated Engineering Representative.
- Upon approval of the package the DER can present that package to the FAA Aircraft Certificate Office (Engineering Branch of the FAA).
- The ACO will issue an engineer approval on whether the part is equivalent or better.
- Upon approval from the ACO the package is then presented to Manufacturing Inspection District Office (the manufacturing branch of the FAA) .
- Once MIDO is satisfied that your organization has the capacity and capability to manufacture the part, only then will they issue the PMA approval of the part.
I hope this answers your question about the certification process and how long and painstaking it is.
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01-04-2021, 06:10 PM #19(Username Protected) -
There is no reason why an AeTR-overhauled gear couldn't fly Part 135. AeTR is an FAA-certified repair station with the appropriate ratings to perform the EMB-500 and EMB-505 landing gear overhauls. Several Part 135 operators use AeTR for Phenom (and other business jet) landing gear overhauls. If a Part 135 (or Part 121, etc.) operator has specific/special requirements under their maintenance program, AeTR follows the specific requirements of the Part 135 or 121 operator, per FAA regulations.
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01-06-2021, 09:58 AM #20Finally I decided to go with Constant and AeTR. Estimate for the Landing gear is '$85k (30 day turntime) - Average final invoices have been $98k '. Good communication with (Username Protected) Odgen (g(Username Protected)@turbinerotables.com). Embrear has approved in two days a LOA (letter of authorization) what was provided as a draft from AeTR.
10y will start coming Monday the 11th January. Keep you updated how it goes.
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03-04-2021, 05:59 AM #21
(Username Protected), just curious what the findings/overages were during your inspections. We have a 300 going into the 120/gear in September then followed by our 100 same time next year.
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03-04-2021, 01:45 PM #22(Username Protected), Will report in detail next week when AC is back in service. In short in line with expectations, no big surprises. Still not done, had one week delay thanks to the bad weather. What I can report by now it takes 8 weeks, in my case 9 weeks due to weather delay. Stay tuned.
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03-04-2021, 02:59 PM #24The landing gear itself is about that, 5 weeks as it is business days... + the 1 week weather issue (shipment). But don't underestimate the 10y, best case is maybe 7 weeks, but 8 weeks more safe.
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03-30-2021, 05:18 PM #26As promised the outcome of my 10y landing gear and maintenance. To make the long story short. I'm very pleased with Constant Aviation in Orlando and the landing gear overhaul with Aeropsace Turbine Rotables (AeTR). My first flight and the next I had no issue at all so far - all very good.
In detail:
0. I had three quotes for the 10 year overhaul and three (fix price, the classic company and AeTR) quotes for the landing gear.
1. Total time: 8 weeks and three days. 8 weeks was the quoted from Constant. Finally it could be 1 week less, but landing gear was stocked with Fedex due to winter storm. AeTR turn time including transport 5 weeks
2. Total cost $205.000, estimate was $185.000 but without painting and cosmetics ($15.000) and other findings. Around 200K was anyhow what I have expected. So all in line and fair.
3. Constant Aviation Orlando (savings in compare to the two others between 20K and 30K) - https://www.constantaviation.com/loc.../orlando-ksfb/
3.1 Very good communication (almost daily updates with pictures), Workscope etc. Great job from Scott Mullen (Director of Maintenance) and team. First contact for quotes was Tim Cain, great support as well
3.2 Very good and easy to read Work orders (to accept or not)
3.3 Pricing was good (labor cost in Orlando attractive)
3.4 Very good quality of work
3.5 Can't complain about anything, felt like a customer
3.6. Would do again with Constant Aviation Orlando
4. AeTR
4.1 Very good communication ((Username Protected) Odgen - https://www.turbinerotables.com)
4.2. Turn around time 4 weeks - as expected
4.3 Price quote was $85,000+ findings, normal average they said was $98,000+ transport (about $3,000). (Fix quote from one of the providers was $120,000 and one from the classic $135,000 + findings; all cost + transport)
4.4 Confusion of the 3,500h service bulletin ($10,000) I said no to as not needed before 3,500h. Final quote after landing gear was inspected on site was $106K +3K transport
4.5 Good quality work
4.6. Would do again with AeTR -
04-05-2021, 01:49 PM
#27
Mr. (Username Protected) thank you for the update and I’m glad it went smooth!! How many cycles do you have before the SB comes into play?
Reason I ask is at AV8 MRO that SB is complied with as included in our fixed price. We don’t want our customers to get an overhaul and then a few years later (prior to the next required overhaul) need to pay for another R&R, down time and SB cost.
Also did you get new wiring harnesses and brake hoses?
Thanks for the information and allowing the Phenom community to gain more information!
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04-05-2021, 02:00 PM #28Mr (Username Protected),
All is good. At 3,500 cycles, sorry my fault not h. I have 1500 cycles to go what is 2500h+ for me. That takes a while...
No, I did not get new wiring harnesses and brake hoses, but they checked and all good.
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04-05-2021, 04:25 PM #30SB No.: 500-32-0012, have the pdf but can't add here:
SN 50000005 to 50000326; Main Landing Gear (MLG) Shock Strut PN 2310-2000-403 (LH side) and PN 2310-2000- 404 (RH side), all serial number. This effectivity list includes the aircraft originally equipped with the affected component. Since this component is a “Line Replaceable Unit” (LRU), it may be necessary to refer to the fleet maintenance control record and verify whether the unit has been replaced with another one during routine maintenance
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