Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #1  

    P300 Pitch Trim Normal Fail (PTRIM NML FAIL)

    Been having a rash of issues of late that have me questioning aircraft ownership.

    On my flight yesterday from Bolivia to Santiago I had a PTRIM NML FAIL. Ended up hand flying for around two hours to include the arrival and ILS into Santiago. Fortunately, the weather was decent, so it wasn't a big deal.

    This is the second time in12 months that I've had the PTRIM NML FAIL. As with the last time, it clears on the ground. However, this time I also discovered the CMC CAS data also failed, no logging for the duration of the flight.

    The PTRIM NML FAIL is one of the failures that is associated with the new "FCE RESET" switch which includes GND SPLR FAIL and SPOILER FAULT.

    Has anyone had recurring PTRIM NML FAIL and if so, what was the root cause?
  2. Username Protected
    Member

    Posts
    17 Posts
    Thanked 3 times
    Phenom 100 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Jun 2021
    #2  
    Have you recently performed an annual, particularly a 10-year, or maintenance which required that the yoke be removed?
  3. Username Protected
    Frequent Poster

    Posts
    109 Posts
    Thanked 25 times
    Researching Phenom 100
    Join Date
    Joined Sep 2021
    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    Been having a rash of issues of late that have me questioning aircraft ownership.

    On my flight yesterday from Bolivia to Santiago I had a PTRIM NML FAIL. Ended up hand flying for around two hours to include the arrival and ILS into Santiago. Fortunately, the weather was decent, so it wasn't a big deal.

    This is the second time in12 months that I've had the PTRIM NML FAIL. As with the last time, it clears on the ground. However, this time I also discovered the CMC CAS data also failed, no logging for the duration of the flight.

    The PTRIM NML FAIL is one of the failures that is associated with the new "FCE RESET" switch which includes GND SPLR FAIL and SPOILER FAULT.

    Has anyone had recurring PTRIM NML FAIL and if so, what was the root cause?
    Had that in the 100.
    It occurred after they replaced the FMS. Replacing the Left TAC, and then the actuator, did not fix the problem. Had to do with the software reload after replacing the FMS.
  4. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    Have you recently performed an annual, particularly a 10-year, or maintenance which required that the yoke be removed?
    No, we did swap the Data Concentrators (DCU) during my recent PRSOV saga.
  5. Username Protected
    Member

    Posts
    31 Posts
    Thanked 11 times
    Phenom Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #5  
    Ours failed at about 2400 hours. Was intermittent for like 90 days or so. Same thing, get on the ground and it would always reset. Did the CMC downloads and all that. Turned out, replaced the actuator. When looking in the gearbox of the old actuator, it was dry as dust.
  6. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #6  
    Good to know.

    They were able to analyze the FOQA file and see a mismatch in the position sensing. Haven’t had a chance to determine root cause yet.
  7. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    155 Posts
    Thanked 58 times
    Phenom 100 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    Had that in the 100.
    It occurred after they replaced the FMS. Replacing the Left TAC, and then the actuator, did not fix the problem. Had to do with the software reload after replacing the FMS.
    (Username Protected), on your failure, was it a hard failure or did it happen only intermittently or at certain times? I'm still debugging intermittent PTRIM NML FAIL after having replaced now both TACs and both actuators, some several times.
  8. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    (Username Protected), on your failure, was it a hard failure or did it happen only intermittently or at certain times? I'm still debugging intermittent PTRIM NML FAIL after having replaced now both TACs and both actuators, some several times.
    It has been very intermittent; like twice in the past 12 months. I have maintenance in April so I'll have them run through the recommended troubleshooting to include the trim actuator.
  9. Username Protected
    Frequent Poster

    Posts
    109 Posts
    Thanked 25 times
    Researching Phenom 100
    Join Date
    Joined Sep 2021
    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    (Username Protected), on your failure, was it a hard failure or did it happen only intermittently or at certain times? I'm still debugging intermittent PTRIM NML FAIL after having replaced now both TACs and both actuators, some several times.
    It was a hard fail.
    Whatever software they load after replacement of an FMS, you might want to reload it? That’s what I can think of as something relatively easy to try? Sorry, wish I had more experience.
  10. Username Protected
    Member

    Posts
    62 Posts
    Thanked 17 times
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    It was a hard fail.
    Whatever software they load after replacement of an FMS, you might want to reload it? That’s what I can think of as something relatively easy to try? Sorry, wish I had more experience.
    Gents, when you had your respective failures, did any of them happen at high altitude and if yes, what altitude(s)?
  11. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    155 Posts
    Thanked 58 times
    Phenom 100 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #11  
    Mine is an intermittent failure that does seem correlated to cold soak (i.e. longer at higher altitudes increases the chance of it happening), but it also happened on a flight that only went to 2000. I haven't had it actually fail inside of RVSM, but that may also because I am intentionally not trying to "test" the system at those altitudes either.
  12. Username Protected
    Member

    Posts
    62 Posts
    Thanked 17 times
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    Mine is an intermittent failure that does seem correlated to cold soak (i.e. longer at higher altitudes increases the chance of it happening), but it also happened on a flight that only went to 2000. I haven't had it actually fail inside of RVSM, but that may also because I am intentionally not trying to "test" the system at those altitudes either.
    The reason why I ask this is because I’ve seen others complain that this has happened to them at FL450

    The minimum speed at colder temps AD that’s been out for a year now if exceeded can cause system malfunctions. The high risk zone for getting to slow and too cold would be especially predominant in the winter months on the climb between 410 to 450.
  13. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #13  
    I had the failure again today. We were at FL450 for three hours at -70C. The failure happened about 1.5 hours into the flight. Not too cool as we were over the middle of the Amazon.
  14. Username Protected
    Member

    Posts
    62 Posts
    Thanked 17 times
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    I had the failure again today. We were at FL450 for three hours at -70C. The failure happened about 1.5 hours into the flight. Not too cool as we were over the middle of the Amazon.
    Did you climb above 410 to 450 on FLC or VSpeed?
  15. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #15  
    Most likely FLC at 0.6
  16. Username Protected
    Member

    Posts
    62 Posts
    Thanked 17 times
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #16  
    Yep - according to AD that’s way too slow for the temperature. Need to be at least .67 Mach for temperatures that low and that high up. In our operations and to comply with AD, If we can’t keep the speed during the clim, we ask for a momentary level off to gain the speed. Best wishes
  17. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #17  
    Good point, didn’t really consider the climb. However a typical climb of 1000 rpm would only subject the surface to “cold” for a short period of tim not sure if the cold could soak in that fast. I have a long flight (Username Protected)orrow, will keep the speed up.
  18. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #18  
    On my most recent flight I paid attention to OAT and climbed at mach 0.6 until the temp reached ~-60C which was around FL400. I then climbed using VS at 500 fpm. By time the temp dropped to -66C the Mach was above 0.67 per the POH limitation. The cruise portion was at FL450 at -70C and Mach 0.72 and greater. However, at about the two-hour mark I once again got the Pitch Trim Normal Fail; 3rd flight in a row.

    I sent in the FOQA files and the contract center confirmed that the pitch trim actuator position 1 and position 2 sensors are not in agreement. I get back in the states (Username Protected)orrow but have two long legs.
  19. Username Protected
    Member

    Posts
    62 Posts
    Thanked 17 times
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    On my most recent flight I paid attention to OAT and climbed at mach 0.6 until the temp reached ~-60C which was around FL400. I then climbed using VS at 500 fpm. By time the temp dropped to -66C the Mach was above 0.67 per the POH limitation. The cruise portion was at FL450 at -70C and Mach 0.72 and greater. However, at about the two-hour mark I once again got the Pitch Trim Normal Fail; 3rd flight in a row.

    I sent in the FOQA files and the contract center confirmed that the pitch trim actuator position 1 and position 2 sensors are not in agreement. I get back in the states (Username Protected)orrow but have two long legs.
    Curious, did you get any other cas messages besides pitchtrim fail on any of these events?
  20. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #20  
    No, just the pitch trim normal fail. The jet goes into scheduled maintenance next week. I will let you all know the final root cause when I have it.

    Does anyone know if the two trim position sensors are independent of the trim actuator or are they integral? I haven't had time to study the wiring diagrams.
  21. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    155 Posts
    Thanked 58 times
    Phenom 100 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Oct 2020
    #21  
    On the 100, the position sensors are integral to the actuator.
  22. Username Protected
    Really Frequent Poster

    Posts
    199 Posts
    Thanked 103 times
    Phenom 300 Owner & Pilot
    Join Date
    Joined Nov 2020
       #22  
    I had the PTA replaced last week and flew a couple long legs out west. Submitted the FOQA data to the Contact Center and they reported that the position feedback was 5x5.

    Root cause was a bad Pitch Trim Actuator.

Posting Permissions