[Username Protected]

Greetings,

I am on the waitlist to get into CAE for initial. We will be dry leasing a 300 for now, and are close to signing for a new 300 (delivery 2+ years out). I’ve been flying TBM’s for several years and this will be my first type rating and therefore my first chance really to take the ATP multi engine checkride.

My question is, have any of you seen the insurance company factor in an ATP license vs. commercial? I’d like for my employer to pay for my CTP course and I think they will if I can show that it would be worth it. They may pay for it anyway even if there’s not much of a consideration by insurance, but if there is I’d like to be able to present that to them. I’ll likely pay for it out of pocket even if the employer doesn’t, as the ATP has always been a professional goal of mine.

Thanks

[Username Protected]

Hi (Username Protected)-
You aren't likely going to find an underwriting company that is going to tell you that the ATP is worth X percentage lower premium. However it definitely may factor into your renewal positively especially if you are operating a high value Phenom single-pilot or have a higher liability limit policy. Every little bit helps when it comes time for renewal so if you can show an ATP upgrade from commercial at renewal time it may very well help the underwriting side - to what extent though is going to be hard to quantify. I just don't see an insurer coming back and saying 'hey the ATP will save you X percentage on premiums'. As you know the type ride is to ATP standards anyway so securing the ATP is a natural progression for a professional pilot once you meet the underlying criteria. An ATP definitely sets apart the owner/pilot from the pack as a good number of owner/pilot's don't achieve the ATP license. Good luck with the license upgrade.

[Username Protected]

Hi (Username Protected)-
You aren't likely going to find an underwriting company that is going to tell you that the ATP is worth X percentage lower premium. However it definitely may factor into your renewal positively especially if you are operating a high value Phenom single-pilot or have a higher liability limit policy. Every little bit helps when it comes time for renewal so if you can show an ATP upgrade from commercial at renewal time it may very well help the underwriting side - to what extent though is going to be hard to quantify. I just don't see an insurer coming back and saying 'hey the ATP will save you X percentage on premiums'. As you know the type ride is to ATP standards anyway so securing the ATP is a natural progression for a professional pilot once you meet the underlying criteria. An ATP definitely sets apart the owner/pilot from the pack as a good number of owner/pilot's don't achieve the ATP license. Good luck with the license upgrade.

My 2 cents for the audience on this…in regards to “owner flown” operations, the ATP doesn’t help with your premiums at all with the underwriters. It only helps for pilots flying for a living. If anyone hears different please let me know so I can get a quote as I have always felt this wasn’t fair.

[Username Protected]

(Username Protected)-
With all due respect that is materially incorrect - it can help with premium (see prior disclosure), it can help with limit availability and can also aid in transitioning into the jet class perhaps from a turbo-prop or other transition platform (twin piston etc) - and other areas that insurers define the risk (broader coverages). What I'm noting here working in this business for over 20 years and insuring a predominant number of owner/flown turbine aircraft - it absolutely helps the owner/operator. However - as I noted in my post insurers typically stop short of publishing premium incentives to be specific - it is all factored into your risk and how underwriting rates your policy. It is never a situation whereby you get the ATP and you'll see 15 percent lower premiums - never has been that way and not what I suggested in my post.

[Username Protected]

(Username Protected)-
With all due respect that is materially incorrect - it can help with premium (see prior disclosure), it can help with limit availability and can also aid in transitioning into the jet class perhaps from a turbo-prop or other transition platform (twin piston etc) - and other areas that insurers define the risk (broader coverages). What I'm noting here working in this business for over 20 years and insuring a predominant number of owner/flown turbine aircraft - it absolutely helps the owner/operator. However - as I noted in my post insurers typically stop short of publishing premium incentives to be specific - it is all factored into your risk and how underwriting rates your policy. It is never a situation whereby you get the ATP and you'll see 15 percent lower premiums - never has been that way and not what I suggested in my post.

(Username Protected), I have owned over 8 airplanes my 20 years as a pilot. No incidents or accidents. I have the ATP multi and Commercial Single. However, I don’t fly for a living and this is what I was told by my insurance is the reason. Statistically, owner flown events under Part 91 is where the underwriter says the losses really shine. I have asked for discounts and other considerations to my insurance company being that I achieved high standards of licensing. the owner pilot situation has created no benefit whatsoever for me in regard to insurance anyway. We dry lease the aircraft out as well, their pilots have same licensing as me. However, because I don’t fly for a living and am considered owner pilot, when I fly the bird I only get a quarter the liability coverage to what the dry leases get using a non -owner pilot. What am I missing here (Username Protected)? Perhaps I have wrong agent/carrier?

[Username Protected]

What you are missing (Username Protected) is that fundamentally in aviation insurance owner/flown risks are ALWAYS rated differently (less favorably) than true professionally flown risks. If you OWN the aircraft in whole or in part and are a pilot of that aircraft then you are essentially rated as an owner/pilot (pleasure and business use policy) regardless of having an ATP. If you fly for a living (professional pilot) the policy will be rated as an 'industrial aid' policy with better pricing and higher limits. I was addressing the comment about getting an ATP as an owner/pilot can absolutely help you - however it generally won't help you achieve the same rates and limits as a true professionally flown risk (whereby none of the pilots have ownership interest in the aircraft and all are employed as professional pilots). I hope that clarifies the intent of my response and subject matter.

[Username Protected]

Ok to be clear:

ATP upgrade helps non owner insurance considerations but not owner flown. I think we are both saying same thing here? In the original post the person asking about this is a non owner pilot…which yes I would believe could have a positive impact in that realm only.

[Username Protected]

Depends on your definition of helps - an owner/flown bird will never see the same insurance landscape as one professionally flown - even ATP owner/flown. That is the point I was trying to make. ATP can certainly aid the rating on both classes of business aside from premium.

[Username Protected]

I'd have to agree with (Username Protected). I've found that the ATP license does not help in any substantial way with owner flown rates past a level, even if you're a professional pilot in a Honda Jet. Once you get down to the lower end of owner flown rates, 0.7% of the hull value, it doesn't matter if you have an ATP or you're qualified to fly to the moon. Your rate won't change and has no affect on your premium. A very qualified COMM INST ME owner single pilot is rated almost the same as a ATP pro single pilot.

[Username Protected]

Sounds like your pro-pilot clients are possibly getting a terrible rating then - I wish underwriters would participate in this forum to confirm this topic - otherwise it's broker rhetoric (earwash). Perhaps I can gather a few for Marcus' next mini convention to rebuff this topic as noted.

[Username Protected]

I don't think so. That's why they stay with me.

[Username Protected]

Thank you all for the replies. It sounds like it might make a small difference for me, a professional pilot.

[Username Protected]

Shameless plug to derail this thread:
(Username Protected), if you ever need a mentor to show you the ropes or just a contract pilot for the dry lease until you take delivery of your bird I’d love to be the guy. I have over 13 years of teaching, mentoring, contracting and managing experience on these great planes. Feel free to reach out any time. 8179038152 [email protected]