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  1. Username Protected
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       #1  

    Flaps 1 at engine shutdown

    I'm just coming off of an AOG event with my P100, and it's all about the flaps. Here's the story, which will be followed by a question regarding making it easier to avoid a flap issue that keeps you on the ground.

    I'm based in South Carolina. I was in Niagara, New York, heading for Johnstown, Pennsylvania. After engine start, I dutifully selected flaps 1. Oops. FLAP FAIL message. I recycled three times. No dice. I got on the radio and told the FBO that I needed the line guys to come back to the plane with the GPU. I shut down both engines, removed all power (reboot), came back on with power, reconnected the GPU, extended the flaps to flaps 1, and they functioned normally. I started the engines and continued to Johnstown (flaps operated normally for landing). However, on my next flight the flaps again malfunctioned as soon as I put power onto the airplane. I cycled the flaps, but nothing worked. Time for an AOG.

    The plane is now fixed. I'm going to Johnstown tomorrow to pick it up. But here's my question. Wouldn't it be better to leave the flaps at flaps 1 after landing instead of fully retracting them? If I would've had flaps 1, I would've been able to fly the plane to my maintenance facility instead of needing an AOG. Granted, I would've had limitations, but that would've been better than the AOG.

    At the very least, wouldn't it be better to select flaps 1 prior to engine start? That way, if there's a problem, at least you're not sitting there burning all that Jet-A, and you'd know there's a problem before mom and all the kids are strapped in with the door closed.

    I've had a casual conversation with a P300 guy who says there are plenty of P300 drivers who leave the flaps at 1 in their after landing procedure. I realize this is an electric jet, and the flaps are particularly fi(Username Protected)y, but can anyone come up with a reason for NOT leaving the flaps in the 1 position after landing?
  2. Username Protected
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    #2  
    I don’t see that as a good idea. You’re more likely to generate a FLAP FAIL by leaving them there and cycling power as well as it not being in the manufacturers SOP’s. Since it hard broke a couple of flights later, it had a legitimate failure and I assume with an FCE. I believe there was even an FOL advising against it because it was known to cause a failure. I’m a 300 guy, so I don’t have access to 100 FOL’s.

    Operator I used to work for had a 100 doing the same thing. The company DO kept telling the crews just shut the jet down and start over and it would clear the problem. What one of the crews didn’t pass on was that after they did this, once the flaps were set to full for landing they wouldn’t retract until after the jet was shutdown. This went on for their entire rotation. Next crew wasn’t told and ended up having to go around full flaps. You can imagine how well the 100 handles a full flap go around, but had they been in a high/hot/heavy situation it probably wouldn’t have ended well.

    My overall take-it’s a lot easier to answer the mail after an incident if you’ve followed the manufacturer’s checklist and SOP’s. The QRH procedures are not really intended to fix your problems before takeoff either. That’s covered by POH Sec 5 Ground Resets if there is one for the applicable CAS message. At least for the 300, there isn’t one for FLAP FAIL.
  3. Username Protected
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    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected)
    That’s covered by POH Sec 5 Ground Resets if there is one for the applicable CAS message. At least for the 300, there isn’t one for FLAP FAIL.
    That's a good reminder. I just came out of recurrent and completely forgot about this section in the POH.
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    #4  
    (Username Protected), what did the fix end up being? Sensor or?

    Thanks,

    (Username Protected)-
  5. Username Protected
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    #5  
    Just had the same problem. They replaced the FCU in the aft baggage compartment and all is well. Tech said said the the new FCU’s are an updated unit that hopefully will prevent this issue in the future.
  6. Username Protected
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    #6  
    I haven't had my coffee yet, so someone correct me if I'm wrong: We park with Flaps up because when we go from Flaps up to flaps 1, there is a system test before the flaps start to transit. That's the initial delay and part of why our flaps are so darn slow. If you park in Flaps 1, then depart, that systems test won't be conducted. Thus you may not find out about a flap issue until you're configuring for approach/landing later on.

    And the more important reason to park with flaps up, you don't want to look like a Citation on the ramp...
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    #7  
    I have had this problem several times in the past in the 100 on two different airframes. Each time I was AOG and both times the mechanics couldn’t figure it out and started replacing parts. BOTH times it turned out to be a flap position sensor. After the first time of them taking 5 days and finally finding the issue( engineering couldn’t determine the issue with the download, the mechs used good old fashioned common sense after the engineers threw their hands up) I kept that nugget in the back of my mind. On the second time as soon as it happened I let the AOG team know that the exact same issue happened prior and that they should check the flap position sensor on the other said. They blew me off and sent the downloads to engineering and after 6 days of replacing every computer part in the plane I again told them to swap the sensors and see if the problem followed. It did and I was on my way 2 days later. They tried to charge me over $70,000 for all their parts I didn’t need and after an email to the president of Embraer and the President of US sales I was sent a bill for $2500 for the single part I needed and the labor for that part install.
    That is a log story to say don’t let the mechs and engineers disregard the experiences you have in your planes. It all adds up in the end and may save you a week of AOG and a very large bill. Safe flying all!!
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    #8  
    (Username Protected), l flew for JetSuite, the first P100 operator. During the first couple of years of operations, we left the flaps at 1 before shutdown.
    Around 2012 or 13, EMBRAER came out with an SB that fixed the problem with FLAP FAIL message.
    Make sure your’s had that SB done!
  9. Username Protected
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    #9  
    Welp, add me to the honorable list of AOG flap failures. I was preparing to depart from KTOA on July 14 in my P100 when I got the same yellow display at flap zero and a FLAP FAIL CAS. I tried cycling the flap lever per QRH. I tried to 'reboot' cycling the batteries (tried it with different flap positions per recommendations from others). No joy!

    I called/emailed Embraer AOG and sent them the obligatory CMC files. The next morning (July 15), Clay Lacy MRT arrived with all the right testing equipment, ran multiple tests, discussed with Embraer, swapped the existing flap sensors and determined it is a faulty sensor. Clay Lacy MRT was great! Embraer suggested replacing both sensors. Clay Lacy ordered the parts and...doh!...looks like the parts are on backorder until July 25. They are working with SJK parts to try to expedite.

    Anyone know of any P100 flap sensors in stock anywhere? HELP!

    UPDATE 7/19: Clay Lacy was able to get one new flap sensor on 7/18. It was installed, tested and RTS. We are back in the air.

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