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  1. Username Protected
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       #1  

    Phenom 100 range details

    Hi, everyone!

    I’m in the middle of Phenom 100 acquisition and getting my type rating process.

    First, want thank you all for the great information recourse. It’s invaluable.

    I have a range question.
    It’s crucial for me to get as far as possible one leg.
    The numbers I hear from pilots are like I can make 1200 NM trip (no wind), 45 min IFR + alternate.

    But I can’t get those numbers in POH. Here is my simple math:

    Total fuel: 2750 lb
    Taxi: 80 lb

    Climb:
    • distance: 122 NM
    • Fuel: 451

    Cruise:

    • Distance: 766 NM
    • Speed: 366
    • Fuel Flow: 523 lb/h
    • Fuel: 1192 lb

    Descend:

    • Distance 114 NM
    • Fuel 188 lb

    Alternate + IFR:

    • Fuel: 869 lb

    Total:

    • Distance: 1002 NM
    • Fuel: 2750 lb


    So, how you, guys do 1200 NM?
    And what is going to be my max range? 2 people on board – crew, full tanks.

    Thank you!
  2. Username Protected
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    #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    The numbers I hear from pilots are like I can make 1200 NM trip (no wind), 45 min IFR + alternate.
    No way 1200 nm with an alternate. That only works on a clear VFR day.

    In ForeFlight I am showing 1200 nm burning 2290 lbs (no wind) at FL410, leaving you at 460 lbs which is very light (about 45 min of fuel at LRC / 10,000ft).
  3. Username Protected
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       #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    No way 1200 nm with an alternate. That only works on a clear VFR day.

    In ForeFlight I am showing 1200 nm burning 2290 lbs (no wind) at FL410, leaving you at 460 lbs which is very light (about 45 min of fuel at LRC / 10,000ft).
    Thank you!
    So, my math is correct? 1000 Nm (Alt + IFR) in real life?
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    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    So, my math is correct? 1000 Nm (Alt + IFR) in real life?
    No wind conditions yeah, unless you have an early descent etc.
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       #5  
    How many NM can early descent add? What rate of descent you suggest to save fuel?
    And based on POH I assume FL400-410 to lowest fuel flow, right?
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    #6  
    Regarding fuel usage, typically higher is better but not always depending on wind. FLTPLAN.com is an excellent tool and the Advanced Fuel Burn Calculation is spot on. The other consideration is total trip cost which includes fuel but also EEC and ESP hourly cost plus some amount for airframe hourly depreciation. My rule of thumb for the P100 was 40lbs of fuel savings is equivalent (break even) to 1 extra minute of flight time. My cruise altitude was typically FL360-FL390.

    It is really hard to specify range as there are too many variables. In theory you can do 1000nm but in reality its more like 800nm depending on weather, IFR reserves, and where you fly. I am on the east coast. If I'm flying into the northeast, south Florida or Chicago extra fuel is a must as you will be put down into the weeds very early. I would expect the SF and LA are similar.

    The default 3-degree VNAV decent rate is a good number yielding 2000-2500 fpm; which is comfortable for your passengers, any faster and speed control and passenger discomfort may become an issue.
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       #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    Regarding fuel usage, typically higher is better but not always depending on wind. FLTPLAN.com is an excellent tool and the Advanced Fuel Burn Calculation is spot on..
    Thanks a lot.
    I generally use ForeFlight for planning + my custom excel tables based on POH and real life data.
    I fly in EU and Ukraine. Airspace is not busy here and typically I descend when I ask . It's in Meridian, FL270-280. I hope it will be similar for Phenom.
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    #8  
    (Username Protected), if you have the foreflight performance package for the Phenom 100, you'll find it to be extremely accurate. Florida used to an issue when they dropped you down early and you burn a lot of fuel. Now with the new STARs, that keep you up higher it's back to being very close. Would be nice if they added the "Boeing 85% probability winds" to do more analysis.
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    #9  
    New STARS for Florida??
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    #10  
    I should have said some are new and some are revised.
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    #11  
    Haven't seen those yet - will check it out, thanks for the heads up!
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       #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    (Username Protected), if you have the foreflight performance package for the Phenom 100, you'll find it to be extremely accurate. Florida used to an issue when they dropped you down early and you burn a lot of fuel. Now with the new STARs, that keep you up higher it's back to being very close. Would be nice if they added the "Boeing 85% probability winds" to do more analysis.
    Yes, I have it, thank you!
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    #13  
    (Username Protected) with Foreflight here.

    "Would be nice if they added the "Boeing 85% probability winds" to do more analysis."

    I too hope we add this to Foreflight Mobile some day. We actually already support historic and manual wind/temperature inputs, but only on our Foreflight Dispatch web tool. This is not the same as ForeFlight Web, which every subscriber has access to, but an additional offering for business tier customers. I'll keep pushing to bring manual wind input to mobile, because I too think it would be very useful for what-if scenario flight planning.

    Also, regarding "bringing you down early", our descent (and climb) models can now be fuel and time biased, even on per-flight basis for those times you fly into Florida or NYC. Tap on the "Details" button when you show the list of climb, cruise and descent profiles to plan with.




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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    Also, regarding "bringing you down early", our descent (and climb) models can now be fuel and time biased, even on per-flight basis for those times you fly into Florida or NYC. Tap on the "Details" button when you show the list of climb, cruise and descent profiles to plan with.
    (Username Protected),

    Do you have on your roadmap to tie the flight plan model to the STAR altitudes? For example on the JAIKE3 into MMU, 131nm out you are at FL240 significantly altering fuel burn from a normal TOD.

    PIE
    BAYPO9 CAMJO Q99 POLYY TUBAS FOZZY FAK JAIKE3
    MMU
    = 1779 lbs flight fuel

    I thought you could "hack" it by adding altitudes the flight plan (for fuel calc purposes), but the NavLog ouput doesn't look right (it doesn't create TOD, just takes me directly from PALEO at FL410 to PEEDS at FL240).

    PIE
    BAYPO9 CAMJO Q99 POLYY TUBAS FOZZY FAK QBEES OTT PALEO PEEDS/F240 FUBRR BUZIE SPNCR JAIKE/F130 ILENE/F130 WACKI MAZIE REGLE/F070 SBJ
    MMU
    = 1910 lbs flight fuel


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  15. Username Protected
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    #15  
    Yes, actual/better STAR support is coming. It's actively in work, but no timeline to give here.

    (Username Protected)
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    #16  
    Welcome (Username Protected)! Alot of great people here and a lot of real world first hand experience to learn from.

    We look forward to working with you ?
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    #17  
    (Username Protected) my longest duration flight was from KFXE - KTUL 1124 nm into a 16-25 kt headwind. Started KFXE with full fuel (2750 lbs is really the max) and landed with almost 600 lbs. By the time I taxied in and shut down I had about 540 lbs remaining, so I took on 330 gal for the next leg to KBZN. The weather was perfect VFR and a quick descent. So yeah, 1200 nm is possible in perfect conditions, but there are days when I'm happy to land with 600 lbs and only go 850 nm! Name:  3.(Username Protected)g
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  18. Username Protected
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    #18  

    Rick Reimers

    I have flown serial number 11 since 2009. I can think of about one time I could have made 1200. 99 times I could not. I pay close attention on an 800nm trip! Factors: fuel not really full, sitting in line for take off, vectors to Timbuktu because of gps outages, change in headwind component, too cold at 400 (check range at 360,), minimums at destination (Montana) everyone doing the full approach. Mechanical issues forcing flight lower (this has happened too often. If you can fly over a VFR airport 200 nm from destination and stop if necessary, ok. Make a fuel stop! It’s fun.
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       #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    (Username Protected) my longest duration flight was from KFXE - KTUL 1124 nm into a 16-25 kt headwind. Started KFXE with full fuel (2750 lbs is really the max) and landed with almost 600 lbs. By the time I taxied in and shut down I had about 540 lbs remaining, so I took on 330 gal for the next leg to KBZN. The weather was perfect VFR and a quick descent. So yeah, 1200 nm is possible in perfect conditions, but there are days when I'm happy to land with 600 lbs and only go 850 nm!
    Wow!
    Thank you for such a detailed message.
    I see fuel flow at FL400 around 580 pph. On AFM I used for my calculations it's 523 pph. What's was the power setting? What's the lowest fuel flow you can have?
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       #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    I have flown serial number 11 since 2009. I can think of about one time I could have made 1200. 99 times I could not. I pay close attention on an 800nm trip! Factors: fuel not really full, sitting in line for take off, vectors to Timbuktu because of gps outages, change in headwind component, too cold at 400 (check range at 360,), minimums at destination (Montana) everyone doing the full approach. Mechanical issues forcing flight lower (this has happened too often. If you can fly over a VFR airport 200 nm from destination and stop if necessary, ok. Make a fuel stop! It’s fun.
    I understand, I'm not trying to push boundaries. Just comparing real world numbers to AFM ... So, looks like I can plan not more then 1000 nm if I don't have headwind and the weather is good.
  21. Username Protected
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    #21  
    Hi, everyone.

    I am reasonably new to the airplane, but I agree with all of the members that have noted that the real world duration and range of the airplane is much lower than it is on paper. So far, my longest leg has been just over 1060 nm with an average headwind of about 35 kts and I landed with just over 500 lbs of fuel, which is lower than I like and I would only do if it is severe clear with many landing options.

    I also just completed a trip of 865 nm with an average headwind of 40 kts and landed with about 775 lbs.

    My rule of thumb has become that I will land and refuel if the duration of the leg starts to approach 3 hours.

    (Username Protected)
    N6685AS
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       #22  
    I also see a very interesting fact.
    There is a difference when you talk to an owner-pilot and operating pilot.

    Operating pilots: "there is almost no difference in fuel if you fly FL410 or 360. And use Max cruise power, you don't save much fuel on low settings. I always fly 360 and max cruise"

    Owner pilot: "there is a huge difference! If you want to save fuel, fly 410 and low power settings."

    What I see, if you don't pay for fuel from you pocket, you don't really care about fuel flow. Just like to fly fast.
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    #23  

    Florida STARS.

    I fly into FXE almost every week.
    The new STAR for FXE from the north is CPTAN1 and it replaced the FISEL7. You cannot fly any other STAR. The CPTAN1 requires a decent to 240/210 about 100 miles sooner than the FISEL, so the new routes add at least 100 pounds of fuel burn.
    The FLL new STAR IS the CUDDA1, a little shorter than the FISEL, but restricted to 280 knots.
    My next trip I will file FLL and divert to FXE.
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    #24  
    For what it's worth, fuel is only a percentage of the operating cost -- programs and other hourly costs are also significant, so flight time savings is a key consideration. The Phenom Pilots app has some tools to put in operating cost/hour and try and help figure out the best altitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by (Username Protected) View Post
    I also see a very interesting fact.
    There is a difference when you talk to an owner-pilot and operating pilot.

    Operating pilots: "there is almost no difference in fuel if you fly FL410 or 360. And use Max cruise power, you don't save much fuel on low settings. I always fly 360 and max cruise"

    Owner pilot: "there is a huge difference! If you want to save fuel, fly 410 and low power settings."

    What I see, if you don't pay for fuel from you pocket, you don't really care about fuel flow. Just like to fly fast.
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    #25  
    Congrats (Username Protected)! There is a lot of great information in this thread from a lot of experienced Phenom pilots. I would just add that there will be many times you won’t be able to get to FL410 in the 100. Very often, you will either bump up against the -60C SAT or ISA plus will limit you. To be safe when planning, make sure to look at both of these variables. I actually made it from Daytona to just west of DFW wrong way FL410 once, but everything lined up. I touched down with 600# VFR. That doesn’t always happen. Have fun and be safe!
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    #26  
    The -60C SAT is a common issue especially during the winter months. Embraer provided unofficial guidance a few years ago that the limitation is -54C TAT. I do not recall seeing a bulletin or other "official" notice.
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    #27  
    The E and EV have similar range numbers?

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