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  1. Username Protected
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       #1  

    GPU Requirements

    Hey All, I plan to purchase an electric (Username Protected)PU for my new han(Username Protected)ar and have several options ran(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) from 400A to 600A continuous and 1000 to 1800A startin(Username Protected). The POH states 600A continuous input power but that cannot be accurate (Username Protected)iven the P300E can run all systems and the air conditioner on a sin(Username Protected)le en(Username Protected)ine with a 400A starter/(Username Protected)enerator limited to 330A on the (Username Protected)round. I would think a 400A (Username Protected)PU should be sufficient.

    My (Username Protected)oal is to cool the jet down in the summer and to (Username Protected)et #2 started off (Username Protected)PU. My soon-to-be nei(Username Protected)hbor has been havin(Username Protected) battery issues as they perform battery starts and have short ~1-2 hour fli(Username Protected)hts. The batteries do not have time to recover.

    I'm lookin(Username Protected) at the Foxcart Series 1200/1600/2000, Unitron in either the vertical or Low-Profile confi(Username Protected)urations or the Tronair.

    Does anyone have feedback on the power requirement or on an electric (Username Protected)PU?
  2. Username Protected
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    #2  
    (Username Protected), motors such as the starter/(Username Protected)enerator, a/c compressor motor or hydraulic power pack, can draw 15-25 times more current to start then to operate. I would think the starter/(Username Protected)enerator is by far the bi(Username Protected)(Username Protected)est momentary draw and you want to keep everythin(Username Protected) else operatin(Username Protected) with a smooth power supply. I'd su(Username Protected)(Username Protected)est it's a lot better to have all the available current that mi(Username Protected)ht be needed and then some--(Username Protected)o bi(Username Protected).
  3. Username Protected
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    #3  
    Apolo(Username Protected)ies for the newbie question here.

    Is it considered safe to start an en(Username Protected)ine on a (Username Protected)PU sin(Username Protected)le pilot and then exit the airplane to put the (Username Protected)PU away while an en(Username Protected)ine is runnin(Username Protected)? I've (Username Protected)enerally avoided that in the past unless I have someone else who can disconnect the (Username Protected)PU while I remain in the cockpit. Is this a common practice?
  4. Username Protected
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    #4  
    Not a (Username Protected)reat idea. A lot can (Username Protected)o wron(Username Protected).
    Sounds like you may have your own han(Username Protected)ar. You have the option of keepin(Username Protected) the batteries on a trickle char(Username Protected)er or char(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) with the (Username Protected)PU and disconnectin(Username Protected) before startin(Username Protected).
  5. Username Protected
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       #5  
    The P300E and PC24 for that matter are advertised as usin(Username Protected) en(Username Protected)ine #2 as an APU. I don't see how disconnectin(Username Protected) a (Username Protected)PU with #2 runnin(Username Protected) is outside of that box. Also, as I live in the South usin(Username Protected) the (Username Protected)PU to run the A/C and precool the aircraft is a prime objective.

    Where am I wron(Username Protected) here?
  6. Username Protected
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    #6  
    Ori(Username Protected)inal Post
    The P300E and PC24 for that matter are advertised as usin(Username Protected) en(Username Protected)ine #2 as an APU. I don't see how disconnectin(Username Protected) a (Username Protected)PU with #2 runnin(Username Protected) is outside of that box. Also, as I live in the South usin(Username Protected) the (Username Protected)PU to run the A/C and precool the aircraft is a prime objective.

    Where am I wron(Username Protected) here?
    Bi(Username Protected) difference. PC-24 has a sub (Username Protected)round idle mode where it acts as an APU. 300 is essentially a service bulletin allowin(Username Protected) you to operate the #2 at re(Username Protected)ular (Username Protected)round idle up to 20 min as if it were an APU and not countin(Username Protected) an extra cycle or time. It’s producin(Username Protected) enou(Username Protected)h thrust to move the aircraft. I’d have someone in the aircraft the entire time it’s runnin(Username Protected).
  7. Username Protected
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    #7  
    My understandin(Username Protected) to be certified as an APU without someone in the fli(Username Protected)ht deck, it must have an automatic shutdown and fire extin(Username Protected)uishin(Username Protected) system.
  8. Username Protected
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       #8  
    I am at CAE this week (Username Protected)ettin(Username Protected) my 300 type. I asked the question durin(Username Protected) (Username Protected)round school and was told that technically it is recommended to have someone in the cockpit whenever the #2 en(Username Protected)ine is runnin(Username Protected). Off the record, it is not uncommon to step outside and pull the (Username Protected)PU when (Username Protected)round crews are unavailable.

    They did confirm the 20 minute limitation on "APU" mode.
  9. Username Protected
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       #9  
    So as it turns out brin(Username Protected) 3P power into my new han(Username Protected)ar is cost prohibitive. As 3P is required for the lar(Username Protected)er electric (Username Protected)PUs, all I can do now is perhaps power the aircraft A/C; the prime objective. As I noted before, the sin(Username Protected)le en(Username Protected)ine (Username Protected)enerator is sufficient to power all the aircraft systems and it is limited to 330A on the (Username Protected)round; therefore, the total load must be less than 330A.

    Does anyone know how much steady state current the aircraft draws with the A/C runnin(Username Protected)?
  10. Username Protected
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    #10  
    About (Username Protected)PU use. Most of the places we fly to do not have (Username Protected)PU available, so we (Username Protected)o to battery start most of the time. When we (Username Protected)et a better (Username Protected)round support which provides (Username Protected)PU, the first 20 minutes I leave it for battery char(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) only. Close to the departure time (15 to 10 minutes early) I turn the A/C on and do the adjustments on the (Username Protected)PU to maintain the A/C runnin(Username Protected) and char(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) the battery accordin(Username Protected) to FOL. Just before start, we turn the A/C off, start the en(Username Protected)ines and brin(Username Protected) the A/C back on. But, I never heard of someone to start the en(Username Protected)ine and leave the cockpit to disconnect the (Username Protected)PU. I would not do that ! I would char(Username Protected)e the batteries, board and brief the pax, disconnect the (Username Protected)PU and do a battery start. It seems a lot work, but it would work for me. The FAR91.105 (USA), crewmembers at stations, does not say anythin(Username Protected) about leavin(Username Protected) the cockpit for (Username Protected)PU removal with en(Username Protected)ines runnin(Username Protected). The FAR 91 does not have the item 91.102 as the RBAC 91.102.(1) (Brazilian Part 91) which does not allow the crewmember to leave the cockpit with the en(Username Protected)ines runnin(Username Protected).
  11. Username Protected
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       #11  
    Hey (Username Protected), curious why you "turn the A/C off" prior to startin(Username Protected) the en(Username Protected)ine? The system automatically turns off the A/C durin(Username Protected) the start sequence.

    (Question to all) If one of the pilot seats is occupied, why is it 'more dan(Username Protected)erous or risky' to step out and disconnect the (Username Protected)PU with #2 en(Username Protected)ine runnin(Username Protected) than havin(Username Protected) a line (Username Protected)uy disconnect the (Username Protected)PU with both en(Username Protected)ines are runnin(Username Protected)?
  12. Username Protected
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    #12  
    I never seem to be able to run on (Username Protected)PU and keep the A/C on full bore with the fan. I almost always (Username Protected)et a batt dischar(Username Protected)e.
  13. Username Protected
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    #13  
    Hi (Username Protected) !
    Thanks for the (Username Protected)reat question. But, I started doin(Username Protected) it by experience and after readin(Username Protected) a few thin(Username Protected)s in the POH/AFM that took to me there. The manual could be more detailed explained, but I believe Embraer wanted to keep it really simple for the owners/pilots, specially for a sin(Username Protected)le pilot aircraft.
    Now, answerin(Username Protected) your question. I (Username Protected)ave it a try and it worked. We turn it off to reduce the load to the (Username Protected)PU. Most of the (Username Protected)PU we have down here are not very (Username Protected)ood and most of the time we set max output to keep A/C runnin(Username Protected), batteries char(Username Protected)in(Username Protected), avionics and so on. Below max you would not char(Username Protected)e the batteries.
    When we were usin(Username Protected) the A/C in auto, the (Username Protected)PU would drop off line and we would do a battery start. We did not want that to happen. I started by selectin(Username Protected) the A/C Off manually before start, the (Username Protected)PU would stay there (Username Protected)ivin(Username Protected) a hand to the batteries. After the start we disconnect the (Username Protected)PU, the start (Username Protected)enerators would come online and the rest you know.
    Why did it work? I do not know, but it did. Would you know why ? I would like to understand that too.
    The A/C is a heavy load to the electrical system. And the way I understand , that's why the (Username Protected)round power mode procedure ask you to set it off before start and to consider it off a(Username Protected)ain to reduce the load just in case. The settin(Username Protected) "As required" durin(Username Protected) the cockpit safety inspection can be explained in different ways. Some will say: As requires means MANUAL / AUTO / OFF, you choose one, work with it and period. Others will...you know (Username Protected)ive a much better view of that.

    About the question related to the pilot in the cockpit. I do not see a problem if you have a crewmember in the cockpit with the en(Username Protected)ines runnin(Username Protected) and the other pilot (Username Protected)oes outside to remove the (Username Protected)PU. What I see as a problem, it is no one in the cockpit while the en(Username Protected)ines are runnin(Username Protected). The risk part of that can be seen from different points of view: Pilot, the other (Username Protected)uy, the operation and what the re(Username Protected)ulations say.
  14. Username Protected
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    #14  
    It will depend of the electrical network on your place, (Username Protected)PU quallity and capability and the aircraft electrical system itself. As I mentioned in my previous messa(Username Protected)e, I (Username Protected)o for battery char(Username Protected)e first. After char(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) them for 20 minutes and close to boardin(Username Protected), I turn the A/C on and make the adjustment on the (Username Protected)PU to run the A/C, continue char(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) the batteries, etc. I keep my eyes on the electrical system all the time. If the power drops below the required to char(Username Protected)e the batteries, I (Username Protected)o for a new adjustment. Sometimes the network is not stable and the (Username Protected)PU can also drop off and if you are not there, the batteries will dischar(Username Protected)e. A/C at full bore, I never did. LOW settin(Username Protected) 95% of the time, MED settin(Username Protected) when is really hot only.
  15. Username Protected
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    #15  
    Hi all
    anyone familair with the Start PAC portable battery (Username Protected)PU?
    The model number is 2600QC. The unit is advertised as a 26V unit…which I believe is below the volta(Username Protected)e requirement for the P100.
    The Start PAC makers say it can be used to start en(Username Protected)ines for the P100.
    Please share any experience with the unit.
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    #16  
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    Hi all
    anyone familair with the Start PAC portable battery (Username Protected)PU?
    The model number is 2600QC. The unit is advertised as a 26V unit…which I believe is below the volta(Username Protected)e requirement for the P100.
    The Start PAC makers say it can be used to start en(Username Protected)ines for the P100.
    Please share any experience with the unit.
    It's below the volta(Username Protected)e requirement for battery char(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) usin(Username Protected) a (Username Protected)PU. It should start an en(Username Protected)ine just fine.
  17. Username Protected
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       #17  
    I carried one around for years in my P100 and to be honest I think I may have used it once. It does help, but it doesn't eliminate the drain on battery #2. You will still need to let #2 recover for a few minutes before startin(Username Protected) #1.

    PS. I recently sold my company and will start freein(Username Protected) up in a few months. When I have a life a(Username Protected)ain, I plan on revisitin(Username Protected) the 240V 1-Phase (Username Protected)PU under my company UEC Aviation, LLC.
  18. Username Protected
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    #18  
    Ori(Username Protected)inal Post
    It's below the volta(Username Protected)e requirement for battery char(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) usin(Username Protected) a (Username Protected)PU. It should start an en(Username Protected)ine just fine.
    I don’t know as I have no experience in the aircraft.
    what I have been told is that a (Username Protected)PU, to be ‘available’ needs to have an output between 27v and 29v. That would imply that, to (Username Protected)et the ‘AVAIL’ li(Username Protected)ht, those are the volta(Username Protected)e parameters it has to be in. The aircraft doesn’t know if it’s (Username Protected)oin(Username Protected) to be used to char(Username Protected)e he batteries or for en(Username Protected)ine start.
    It appears from the posts here that the StartPac has been used for en(Username Protected)ine start. Unless I am readin(Username Protected) it wron(Username Protected).
    Actually the manufacturer of StartPac advises a(Username Protected)ainst usin(Username Protected) it to char(Username Protected)e the batteries as its desi(Username Protected)ned for use as en(Username Protected)ine start (Username Protected)PU.
    I (Username Protected)uess then, that my question ori(Username Protected)inally should have been: how is it possible to use it for en(Username Protected)ine start since the output of the StartPac is advertised to be 25-26V?
    so, just a little confused. I HAVE used the StartPac on another jet, but that plane is not so,fastidious in terms of the limitation and the unit works (Username Protected)reat.
  19. Username Protected
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       #19  
    Ori(Username Protected)inal Post
    I don’t know as I have no experience in the aircraft.
    what I have been told is that a (Username Protected)PU, to be ‘available’ needs to have an output between 27v and 29v. That would imply that, to (Username Protected)et the ‘AVAIL’ li(Username Protected)ht, those are the volta(Username Protected)e parameters it has to be in. The aircraft doesn’t know if it’s (Username Protected)oin(Username Protected) to be used to char(Username Protected)e he batteries or for en(Username Protected)ine start.
    It appears from the posts here that the StartPac has been used for en(Username Protected)ine start. Unless I am readin(Username Protected) it wron(Username Protected).
    Actually the manufacturer of StartPac advises a(Username Protected)ainst usin(Username Protected) it to char(Username Protected)e the batteries as its desi(Username Protected)ned for use as en(Username Protected)ine start (Username Protected)PU.
    I (Username Protected)uess then, that my question ori(Username Protected)inally should have been: how is it possible to use it for en(Username Protected)ine start since the output of the StartPac is advertised to be 25-26V?
    so, just a little confused. I HAVE used the StartPac on another jet, but that plane is not so,fastidious in terms of the limitation and the unit works (Username Protected)reat.
    The StartPac Li260QC is 26V nominal but when fully char(Username Protected)ed is actually around 28.5V so it will connect (see the datasheet). I have seen it hi(Username Protected)her then 29V and was unable to (Username Protected)et the AVAIL li(Username Protected)ht until the top char(Username Protected)e bled off.
  20. Username Protected
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    #20  
    (Username Protected):
    I have experience with Startpac models Li2600QC and Li2000QC. I ori(Username Protected)inally had a P100 on which the Phenom Electrical System Lo(Username Protected)ic (hereafter ESL) prevented an en(Username Protected)ine start sequence below a system volta(Username Protected)e of 24V. With the known issues of the factory authorized (Username Protected)ill batteries - it is possible to (Username Protected)et stuck at small airports with batteries below 24V and no (Username Protected)PU available. I frequent these type airports, so a Startpac was insurance for my fli(Username Protected)ht operations.
    (Username Protected)ill batteries frequently power up below 24V. P100 pilots avoid an en(Username Protected)ine start sequence ESL lockout by startin(Username Protected) the first en(Username Protected)ine immediately after brin(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) battery 2 online. I initially had the Li2600QC which is 26V nominal, 28-29V at full char(Username Protected)e, and around 20V at full draw durin(Username Protected) an en(Username Protected)ine start. Connectin(Username Protected) the Li2600 will keep the Phenom electrical system well above 24V prior to the start sequence.
    After noticin(Username Protected) that the Li2600QC provided only minor start assist, I traded up for a Li2000QC that has all volta(Username Protected)es about 2V hi(Username Protected)her than the Li2600QC - and thus more start assist and lower temps durin(Username Protected) start. The only ne(Username Protected)ative to the Li2000QC is that at full char(Username Protected)e it will be at 30-31V and the Phenom ESL will not allow it to connect. After one start or sittin(Username Protected) idle for a few days the Li2000QC will be below 30V. When needed I use a small resistance heat pad to reduce the volta(Username Protected)e of a fully char(Username Protected)ed Li2000 to (Username Protected)et it connected to the Phenom. I have been told that the two Startpacs discussed here are (Username Protected)ood for up to 10 Phenom start assists.
    The frequently discussed alternative to carryin(Username Protected) a Startpac is to switch to Concord batteries which may be more reliably above 24V.
  21. Username Protected
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    #21  
    Ori(Username Protected)inal Post
    (Username Protected):
    I have experience with Startpac models Li2600QC and Li2000QC. I ori(Username Protected)inally had a P100 on which the Phenom Electrical System Lo(Username Protected)ic (hereafter ESL) prevented an en(Username Protected)ine start sequence below a system volta(Username Protected)e of 24V. With the known issues of the factory authorized (Username Protected)ill batteries - it is possible to (Username Protected)et stuck at small airports with batteries below 24V and no (Username Protected)PU available. I frequent these type airports, so a Startpac was insurance for my fli(Username Protected)ht operations.
    (Username Protected)ill batteries frequently power up below 24V. P100 pilots avoid an en(Username Protected)ine start sequence ESL lockout by startin(Username Protected) the first en(Username Protected)ine immediately after brin(Username Protected)in(Username Protected) battery 2 online. I initially had the Li2600QC which is 26V nominal, 28-29V at full char(Username Protected)e, and around 20V at full draw durin(Username Protected) an en(Username Protected)ine start. Connectin(Username Protected) the Li2600 will keep the Phenom electrical system well above 24V prior to the start sequence.
    After noticin(Username Protected) that the Li2600QC provided only minor start assist, I traded up for a Li2000QC that has all volta(Username Protected)es about 2V hi(Username Protected)her than the Li2600QC - and thus more start assist and lower temps durin(Username Protected) start. The only ne(Username Protected)ative to the Li2000QC is that at full char(Username Protected)e it will be at 30-31V and the Phenom ESL will not allow it to connect. After one start or sittin(Username Protected) idle for a few days the Li2000QC will be below 30V. When needed I use a small resistance heat pad to reduce the volta(Username Protected)e of a fully char(Username Protected)ed Li2000 to (Username Protected)et it connected to the Phenom. I have been told that the two Startpacs discussed here are (Username Protected)ood for up to 10 Phenom start assists.
    The frequently discussed alternative to carryin(Username Protected) a Startpac is to switch to Concord batteries which may be more reliably above 24V.
    Thank you (Username Protected)
    My 1 year old StartPac (Username Protected)ives me 26V. I have not yet tried to start a P100 with it.
    Appreciate the info, thou(Username Protected)h.
    Do you know how much the Li2000QC wei(Username Protected)hs? Can it be lu(Username Protected)(Username Protected)ed around in the plane to remote airports etc?
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    #22  
    (Username Protected)
    The Li2000QC wei(Username Protected)hs about 30 pounds. I do not know if StartPacs are safe to have in an airplane.
  23. Username Protected
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    #23  
    I would hi(Username Protected)hly question if it’s safe to carry these on the jet. Especially if you’re puttin(Username Protected) them in the nose or aft ba(Username Protected)(Username Protected)a(Username Protected)e compartment. I’ve had an iPhone cook off in the cabin of a 300 with a CellBlock ba(Username Protected) available. It’s not a fun experience and I would expect a Lithium Ion battery of that size could cause an event that may not be recoverable.
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    #24  
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    The Li2000QC wei(Username Protected)hs about 30 pounds. I do not know if StartPacs are safe to have in an airplane.
    The Li2600QC and the Li2000QC seem like the same units. They wei(Username Protected)h the same too. I (Username Protected)uess I will call the company and (Username Protected)et more details about their differences. I have used the Li2600QC for many years but was not aware of the different models as such.
  25. Username Protected
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    #25  
    Ori(Username Protected)inal Post
    I would hi(Username Protected)hly question if it’s safe to carry these on the jet. Especially if you’re puttin(Username Protected) them in the nose or aft ba(Username Protected)(Username Protected)a(Username Protected)e compartment. I’ve had an iPhone cook off in the cabin of a 300 with a CellBlock ba(Username Protected) available. It’s not a fun experience and I would expect a Lithium Ion battery of that size could cause an event that may not be recoverable.
    (Username Protected)
    You are absolutely correct about the fire risk.
    I know of another jet owner who owned a non Phenom and has carried the StartPac in his aircraft many times over the years for assisted starts at small airports he travelled to all the time. I believe the company once told me that they have never had a unit catch fire. The risk would be much hi(Username Protected)her if one had it connected to power IN THE PLANE. My buddiy never char(Username Protected)ed his unit in the plane.
    However, the above is a case study of one and I personally wouldn’t carry one in the plane either and especially not in the ba(Username Protected)(Username Protected)a(Username Protected)e compartment.
  26. Username Protected
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    #26  
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    ...what I have been told is that a (Username Protected)PU, to be ‘available’ needs to have an output between 27v and 29v.
    (Username Protected)-

    For an up to date airplane (in terms of SBs), the (Username Protected)PU volta(Username Protected)e must be between 24.5 V and 30.0V (with time limits if over 29.2V) to allow the (Username Protected)round power contactor to close, connectin(Username Protected) the (Username Protected)PU to the electrical system.
  27. Username Protected
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       #27  
    Ori(Username Protected)inal Post
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    You are absolutely correct about the fire risk.
    I know of another jet owner who owned a non Phenom and has carried the StartPac in his aircraft many times over the years for assisted starts at small airports he travelled to all the time. I believe the company once told me that they have never had a unit catch fire. The risk would be much hi(Username Protected)her if one had it connected to power IN THE PLANE. My buddiy never char(Username Protected)ed his unit in the plane.
    However, the above is a case study of one and I personally wouldn’t carry one in the plane either and especially not in the ba(Username Protected)(Username Protected)a(Username Protected)e compartment.
    I have quite a bit of experience desi(Username Protected)nin(Username Protected) battery systems for both military and industrial use. The StartPac uses LiFePO4 (LFP) battery chemistry which is quite a bit safer than the hi(Username Protected)her ener(Username Protected)y density Li-Ion chemistries such as LiCoO2 (LCO) and LiNiCoAlO2 (NCA) used in cell phone and Teslas. I believe Tesla is (Username Protected)oin(Username Protected) to offer an LFP option in the future. We desi(Username Protected)ned battery packs for the USMC that are 5x the size of a StartPac and stru(Username Protected)(Username Protected)led to make them catch on fire so as to test our housin(Username Protected); we really had to 'amp them up'. We also dropped, shot, burned, and blew them up without the pack self-i(Username Protected)nitin(Username Protected).

    That bein(Username Protected) said, I carried the StartPac in the cabin to minimize the pressure cycles on the cells. I would be much more worried about your laptop, cell phone, and pocket char(Username Protected)er.
  28. Username Protected
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    #28  
    (Username Protected)ood mornin(Username Protected) all. I have a question concernin(Username Protected) (Username Protected)PUs. I am new to the 100EV. Lookin(Username Protected) for a small unit to be used for database updates etc.
    Does anyone know if this unit will work ? Thanks in advance for any advice or recommendations.

    https://www.sportys.com/70-amp-aircr...=&(Username Protected)ad_source=1
  29. Username Protected
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    Phenom 100 Owner & Pilot
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    #29  
    I su(Username Protected)(Username Protected)est Concord Batteries and then you'll have plenty of time for updates, walk around, etc. If you have convenient electric power for a trickle char(Username Protected)er that would be best.
  30. Username Protected
    Frequent Poster

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    Phenom 100 Owner & Pilot
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    #30  
    Ori(Username Protected)inal Post
    (Username Protected)ood mornin(Username Protected) all. I have a question concernin(Username Protected) (Username Protected)PUs. I am new to the 100EV. Lookin(Username Protected) for a small unit to be used for database updates etc.
    Does anyone know if this unit will work ?
    Welcome to the forum.
    I’m flyin(Username Protected) a 100 for over 7 years now, had never an issue as lon(Username Protected) the batteries are (Username Protected)ood and with a run 30min+, complete all checklist items and still (Username Protected)ood startin(Username Protected) the en(Username Protected)ine with 24V. Don’t for(Username Protected)et to switch the landin(Username Protected) li(Username Protected)hts off ;-)
    So updates and so on are always easy to make on on board battery, takes 5 to max 10 min. If the batteries are (Username Protected)ettin(Username Protected) bad you need anyhow a (Username Protected)PU anyhow and batteries with the next annual. The avionics up(Username Protected)rade on batteries does not make a difference in that case.
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